[00:01:40] <bawolff>	 !e Nuke
[00:01:40] <wm-bot>	 https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Nuke
[00:01:44] <bawolff>	 can also help
[00:02:02] <Reedy>	 gj bawolff
[00:03:02] <bawolff>	 Oh hmm, that was a while ago wasn't it
[00:17:17] <Milenko>	 I just upgraded MW, so.. do I just do require_once( "$IP/skins/monobook.php" ); to use that skin now>?
[00:19:39] <bawolff>	 Milenko: Upgraded to 1.23? 
[00:19:47] <Milenko>	 yeah
[00:20:13] <bawolff>	 Just set $wgDefaultSkin = 'monobook'; at the bottom of LocalSettings.php
[00:20:36] <Milenko>	 gotcha.
[00:20:45] <Milenko>	 the guide confused me a litte
[00:20:59] <bawolff>	 There's going to be changes to how skins work that will possibly mean you need to require_once them, but that won't happen until at least 1.24
[00:21:18] * bawolff not exactly following the skin changes though...
[00:22:51] <Milenko>	 I havent used our wiki in years, so.. significant changes after i re-installed it from storage lol
[00:58:11] <LFaraone>	 who is "Rohan Rawat", btw? Curious if I can touch https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=20189 or if someone is actually actively working on it
[01:00:14] <bawolff>	 LFaraone: He's been fixing the bugs that he's assigned to himself
[01:00:22] <bawolff>	 So it probably means he'll actually work on it
[01:02:29] <bawolff>	 LFaraone: Although if its been a little while (say like a month), you could always write a comment on the bug asking if he's still working on it, and if not would he be ok with you taking the bug
[01:48:17] <rarityfan>	 does anyone know where i can host my mediawiki site for free?
[01:49:32] <samwilson>	 orain are new, and seem to be good
[01:49:35] <samwilson>	 orain.org
[01:50:05] <rarityfan>	 merci
[01:50:30] <legoktm>	 !hosts
[01:50:30] <wm-bot>	 There is no such key, you probably want to try: !wikia, 
[01:50:39] <legoktm>	 not that one...
[01:50:59] <rarityfan>	 lol wikia sucks
[01:51:02] <rarityfan>	 !wikia
[01:51:02] <wm-bot>	 http://wikia.com is a site that hosts free content community wikis.
[01:51:19] <legoktm>	 here we go
[01:51:21] <legoktm>	 rarityfan: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Hosting_services
[01:51:38] <rarityfan>	 thanks
[01:52:26] <legoktm>	 !hosts is https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Hosting_services is a list of various MediaWiki hosting services
[01:52:26] <wm-bot>	 Key was added
[01:53:32] <rarityfan>	 alright i submitted my wiki to http://mwzips.com
[02:13:06] <rarityfan>	 legoktm: wait is there a wiki farm besides wikia that has the mediawikichat extension installed?
[02:13:40] <legoktm>	 I think brickimedia has something like that?
[02:14:05] <legoktm>	 https://wikiapiary.com/wiki/Extension:MediaWikiChat
[02:19:27] <samwilson>	 rarityfan: what's mwzips.com?
[02:19:42] <rarityfan>	 wiki hosting service
[02:51:34] <sDrewth>	 is there a means to force a space in Special:Prefix ?  eg. Special:Prefix/Template:DNB_ 
[02:51:56] <sDrewth>	 I have tried underscore, &#x20; and others and they are all ignored
[03:11:02] <rarityfan>	 g2g
[03:14:44] <samwilson>	 sdrewth: how about the prefix search parameter?
[03:15:02] <samwilson>	 prefix:"template:DNB "
[03:27:59] <sDrewth>	 samwilson: thanks, I was trying to transclude {{Special:Prefix...}}, I think that I can do it with a DynamicList thingy
[03:29:35] <samwilson>	 ah cool
[03:48:18] <sumanah>	 hi Niharika!
[03:48:36] <Niharika>	 Hi sumanah! How´re you?
[03:48:57] <sumanah>	 I'm all right. About to go to sleep.
[03:49:00] <sumanah>	 Hope you are doing well.
[03:49:03] <Niharika>	 I´m looking at all the bugs and updates for the beta feature of interlanguage links today. 
[03:49:10] <Niharika>	 sumanah: I´m good. :) 
[03:49:25] <Niharika>	 sumanah: Do beta features expire after 6 months? 
[03:49:33] <sumanah>	 Niharika: That's a question for the Product folks
[03:49:41] <sumanah>	 Deskana: ^
[03:49:41] <Niharika>	 Ah, okay. 
[03:49:58] <sumanah>	 https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Beta_Features
[03:50:30] <sumanah>	 hey TimStarling 
[03:50:45] <sumanah>	 just wanted to thank you for being very flexible on times you can do meetings
[03:51:14] <sumanah>	 TimStarling: I know it's rough and I appreciate that you make time to come to meetings that are very early or late where you are
[03:52:11] <sumanah>	 also TimStarling I had a dream that we were hanging out and having a good time and laughing, and I realized it's been way too long since we hung out. Hope to catch up sometime - I suppose it'll be in January, as I won't be at Wikimania
[03:53:05] <sDrewth>	 a day with beer at the cricket sounds like fun for January Sumanah
[03:53:21] <sDrewth>	 of course, you won't get cricket
[03:53:36] <sumanah>	 sDrewth: oh that does sound nice! There's probably someone playing cricket somewhere in the Bay Area any given weekend 
[03:53:37] <sDrewth>	 so you will just have to sit in the sun and drink beer
[03:53:48] * sumanah laughs aloud. The hard life we lead.
[03:54:23] <TimStarling>	 it's the price I pay for living in a nice place like Australia
[03:54:34] <sDrewth>	 too cold in SF in January, move it to Sydney, for whomever is playing the test
[03:55:41] <sumanah>	 btw sDrewth http://www.shaunagm.net/blog/2013/05/progress-free-thought-untrammeled-lives/ - in case you want to toss any of that onto Wikisource - the person who blogged that would also be happy to do the work, and I've pointed her at the intro Wikisource "how to donate material" thing
[06:51:21] <Nemo_bis>	 Really? <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Thread:Project:Support_desk/Collection_Extension:_RuntimeError:_command_failed_with_returncode_256/reply_(16)>
[09:00:25] <sasan>	 hi, can i chnage my wiki baground color?
[09:20:28] <sasan>	 can i change my wiki background color
[09:41:55] <sasan>	 no body can help me with my question??
[10:18:22] <Vogone>	 sasan: yes, you can
[11:01:36] <sasan>	 <vogano> how?
[11:02:12] <sasan>	 <vogone> how?
[11:07:23] <sasan>	 how can i change my wiki color background
[11:07:23] <sasan>	 ?
[11:09:42] <Vogone>	 sasan: depends on which colour you want
[11:12:57] <sasan>	 for example blue
[11:24:06] <Vogone>	 sasan: go to the [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] page of your wiki and add *{background:blue}
[11:24:21] <Vogone>	 sorry
[11:24:35] <Vogone>	 *{background-color:blue}
[13:53:23] <unicron>	 what's a good extension to use to create an interface that allows adding entries to an address book/contact list without using wiki markup?
[14:15:34] <sumanah>	 it is 20 years since the release of "Superunknown" and I am rocking out to "Black Hole Sun"
[15:19:43] <sumanah>	 andre__: Unhandled Exception ("Exception")
[15:19:43] <sumanah>	 Invalid JWT signature from /identify. -- when trying to do OAuth login for Phabricator
[15:26:58] <sumanah>	 andre__: I was not logged into mediawiki.org. I went to http://fab.wmflabs.org . I clicked the on/off button and tried to use the OAuth thing to log in, which meant I had to first log in AT mediawiki.org . And then I got that exception thing.
[15:27:13] <andre__>	 sumanah: thanks. browser info? :)
[15:27:58] <sumanah>	 Then after this, I was logged into mediawiki.org and I tried fab.wmflabs.org , and then the OAuth thing worked
[15:28:01] <sumanah>	 firefox on Ubuntu
[15:28:10] <sumanah>	 Firefox 30.0
[15:28:13] <sumanah>	 andre__: ^
[15:52:31] <wget>	 Hi guys. Each time I want to put monospaced text in my MediaWiki article, I'm using the <pre> </pre> statement, but it is using its own dedicated line.
[15:52:59] <wget>	 Any idea to have the same behavior statement, but without using a dedicated line.
[15:53:06] <wget>	 Like lstinline statement in LaTeX.
[15:54:38] <MatmaRex>	 wget: <code>…</code>? should be close enough
[15:55:32] <wget>	 MatmaRex: Right. Thanks for the hint.
[15:56:17] <sumanah>	 good luck wget - and nice nickname :)
[15:59:31] <wget>	 sumanah: Haha. Thanks.
[16:04:39] <tonyg_>	 i upgraded from ubuntu 13.04 to ubuntu 13.10 and my wiki stopped working. as far as i can see all my apache2 and mediawiki configs haven't changed and are correct. has anybody experienced this after an upgrade?
[16:05:11] <marktraceur>	 tonyg_: Did the php version change?
[16:05:34] <marktraceur>	 Also, tonyg_, what version of MediaWiki are you running?
[16:08:13] <tonyg_>	 mediawiki 1.19
[16:08:23] <tonyg_>	 1.19.8
[16:09:14] <tonyg_>	 i installed via apt-get, which i guess is not recommended. php version is 5.5.3
[16:09:56] <tonyg_>	 my site always seems to go to /var/www/index.html
[16:10:09] <tonyg_>	 as opposed to going to /var/lib/mediawiki as it used to
[16:10:12] <marktraceur>	 Ugh, yeah, the debian package is kind of crap
[16:10:35] <marktraceur>	 tonyg_: Maybe your site configs got replaced somehow?
[16:10:46] <tonyg_>	 they all seem to be in order
[16:11:08] <tonyg_>	 when i upgraded i kept my version of all config files when prompted to keep mine or use the vendor's version
[16:11:23] <marktraceur>	 Huh.
[16:12:27] <tonyg_>	 my sites-enabled has DocumentRoot /var/lib/mediawiki so that hasn't changed, neither has my apache2.conf
[16:13:13] <marktraceur>	 tonyg_: Maybe your httpd.conf has a default site config or something
[16:13:25] <marktraceur>	 But I guess that should be overridden in the site config...sigh
[16:47:38] <Krenair>	 sumanah, hey. you been reading all my previous emails? :p
[16:48:43] <sumanah>	 Krenair: hahaha! no I am just catching up on some stuff and you are generally ahead of me :D
[17:07:15] * DanielK_WMDE_ waves at sumanah
[17:07:23] <sumanah>	 hi DanielK_WMDE_! how are you?
[17:09:13] <sumanah>	 also DanielK_WMDE_ reminder re https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Requests_for_comment/Assert - there are some open questions + a request for a changeset
[17:09:48] <sumanah>	 and speaking of y'all and RfCs, aude, if you'd like some comment on https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Linker_refactor please mention it on wikitech-l and maybe it could get scheduled for discussion soon?
[17:10:28] <aude>	 don't have time to work on it right now but will update / ask for comments
[17:10:34] <sumanah>	 Cool thanks aude 
[17:11:15] <DanielK_WMDE_>	 sumanah: oh, cool, didn't realize anyone looked at the assert stuff :)
[17:12:52] <DanielK_WMDE_>	 sumanah: i'm actually melting, i think. it's hot and humid in berlin. went to a festival over the weekend, now trying to get back into "real" life. not easy...
[17:13:00] <wget>	 Hi guys. Do you have a way to import files from Wikipedia in another wiki (talking in the name of the Document Foundation - LibreOffice)?
[17:13:23] <wget>	 Since some content are CC-BY, it is stupid to reupload the images on our own wiki.
[17:13:42] <sumanah>	 DanielK_WMDE_: Were you at OKFest?
[17:13:51] <sumanah>	 My friend Christie Koehler from Mozilla was there
[17:13:53] <sumanah>	 hi fhocutt!
[17:13:53] <marktraceur>	 wget: Sure; there are a few ways
[17:14:05] <DanielK_WMDE_>	 sumanah: so, missed that. i think lydia went
[17:14:08] <fhocutt>	 hi sumanah! 
[17:14:10] <marktraceur>	 wget: You can enable instantcommons on your wiki, which gives you the entire Commons library to choose from
[17:14:15] <marktraceur>	 !instantcommons | wget
[17:14:15] <wm-bot>	 wget: InstantCommons is a feature for MediaWiki 1.16+ that allows any MediaWiki installation to use media on the Wikimedia Commons. This has basically been realized via $wgForeignFileRepos. See <http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgForeignFileRepos>. If you're only looking to use images from Wikimedia Commons and no other wikis, you can use the shortcut setting $wgUseInstantCommons to true.
[17:14:20] * sumanah gives DanielK_WMDE_ a cooling drink made with sparkling water, fruit juice, and basil
[17:14:36] <fhocutt>	 sorry I am late here! I thought I was connected here, but actually not.
[17:14:38] <DanielK_WMDE_>	 sumanah: thanks :)
[17:14:49] <wget>	 marktraceur: Thanks !
[17:14:57] <sumanah>	 fhocutt: It happens - no prob. :) How is https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Evaluating_and_Improving_MediaWiki_web_API_client_libraries going?
[17:15:02] <wget>	 I'm gonna ask to enable this extension.
[17:15:12] <sumanah>	 DanielK_WMDE_: not sure whether you have "met" Frances - she is my intern working on evaluating & improving MW api client libraries
[17:15:23] <fhocutt>	 sumanah: made progress on the Ruby eval, and met up with amenking! 
[17:15:27] <sumanah>	 whoooooo!!!
[17:15:34] <marktraceur>	 It's not even an extension; it's just a config variable :)
[17:16:10] <sumanah>	 fhocutt: quick question - you mentioned the other day that pywiki has some open patchsets awaiting review, correct?
[17:16:18] <fhocutt>	 lots, yes
[17:16:38] <DanielK_WMDE_>	 fhocutt, sumanah: oh, cool! 
[17:16:49] <sumanah>	 I wanted to mention fhocutt http://korma.wmflabs.org/browser/repository.html?repository=gerrit.wikimedia.org_pywikibot_core in case you wanted to see a visualization of that
[17:16:50] <DanielK_WMDE_>	 wikidata could use some love wrt client libraries, too :)
[17:17:03] <fhocutt>	 thanks DanielK_WMDE_! 
[17:17:08] <sumanah>	 DanielK_WMDE_: perhaps you saw https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/API:Client_code/Gold_standard ? "Platinum standard: makes the Wikidata API available"
[17:17:34] <sumanah>	 DanielK_WMDE_: in your opinion, do you think there ought to be separate Wikidata-specific libraries, or general MW libraries that also let you get at Wikidata?
[17:17:38] <fhocutt>	 it could! Unfortunately pywikibot's the only one I've found that really does much with the wikibase modules
[17:17:58] <sumanah>	 fhocutt: Daniel has been working on Wikidata since it started - he is a developer at Wikimedia Germany
[17:18:24] <fhocutt>	 neat. 
[17:18:38] <sumanah>	 and we also owe him gratitude for putting on several of the early MediaWiki hackathons - he was such a passionate event organizer that he lost his voice several times
[17:19:17] <DanielK_WMDE_>	 sumanah, fhocutt: ideally, the client libs would be modular, so you would hook in the wikibase client module into the general mediawiki client framework.
[17:19:30] * fhocutt nods
[17:20:55] <sumanah>	 DanielK_WMDE_: as far as you know, is there anything on https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Tools/External_tools that ought to also be linked from  https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/API:Client_code ?
[17:21:19] <DanielK_WMDE_>	 fhocutt: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikidata_Toolkit might be worth a look. currently it's mostly about processing dumps, but afaik, it aims to also provide access to the life site's api
[17:21:28] <sumanah>	 hmmm
[17:21:29] <sumanah>	 Wikidata Toolkit
[17:21:29] <sumanah>	     by Markus Kr�tzsch
[17:21:29] <sumanah>	 Free Java library for working with Wikidata. Helps developers to download, process, and query data from Wikidata and other Wikibase sites.
[17:21:55] <fhocutt>	 hm, ok
[17:22:18] <DanielK_WMDE_>	 sumanah: re External tools: i really don't know. maybe aude does. But she's busy with deployment atm.
[17:22:32] <DanielK_WMDE_>	 i should really play more with these tools...
[17:23:05] <sumanah>	 fhocutt: aude is Katie Filbert, longtime MediaWiki developer who is at Wikimedia Germany working on Wikidata. She's great at diagnosing bugs. She's also active in the OpenStreetMap community.
[17:23:30] <fhocutt>	 yes, she was at WCUSA, right?
[17:23:33] <sumanah>	 (if someone says "Katie" they might mean her, or Katie Horn, head of fundraising tech at Wikimedia Foundation)
[17:23:35] <sumanah>	 oh yes, you met her!
[17:24:08] <marktraceur>	 If someone says something that sounds like "Katie" it might also be Katy or Kaity, though.
[17:24:17] <sumanah>	 True!
[17:24:17] <marktraceur>	 Yay ambiguity
[17:24:23] <sumanah>	 DanielK_WMDE_: did you see https://twitter.com/autowikifacts ? fhocutt's bot?
[17:25:00] <sumanah>	 grabbing and microblogging obscure facts from Wikimedia sites - she did successfully make it work with Wikidata, after some difficulty
[17:26:01] <DanielK_WMDE_>	 cute, but has been silent for a while, it seems
[17:26:21] <fhocutt>	 yeah, I haven't set it up to autotweet yet
[17:26:22] <sumanah>	 DanielK_WMDE_: yeah, she made it work as a proof of concept while learning our APIs
[17:29:12] <sumanah>	 fhocutt: by my rough count there are ~30 open patchsets against pywikibot/core that have +1 or Verified (test suite?) checkmarks, and no -1 or -2 review scores, yet have not been merged yet. (looking at https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/q/status:open+project:pywikibot/core,n,002dc1d400022138 ). I think I will mention this to Merlijn and let him know that this delay is negatively affecting the project's ability to get new contributors.....
[17:29:23] <sumanah>	 fhocutt: so, what are you up to today? any blockers?
[17:29:41] <fhocutt>	 finishing up the MW::Gateway eval/todos/email
[17:29:56] <fhocutt>	 following up with Amanda
[17:30:13] <sumanah>	 (I am still superlatively happy that you got to talk with her!)
[17:30:16] <fhocutt>	 starting on the JWBF eval
[17:30:19] <sumanah>	 (I feel lucky that you and she are in the same city)
[17:30:36] <fhocutt>	 me too! I am going to meet up with her and give her a crash course in the API
[17:30:42] <sumanah>	 YAYAYAYAY
[17:30:49] <sumanah>	 oh to be a fly on the wall
[17:30:55] * fhocutt grins
[17:31:08] <sumanah>	 (or a spider under the table, as the Bajorans evidently say, according to a last-season The Next Generation episode)
[17:31:28] <sumanah>	 ok fhocutt do you have the help you need re the Java evaluation?
[17:32:03] <fhocutt>	 not yet, will email re: setting things up
[17:32:12] <sumanah>	 Good good.
[17:34:02] <sumanah>	 fhocutt: I'd appreciate it if you could add that Wikidata toolkit to the API Client Code page as well, sometime this week - it's ok not to evaluate it
[17:34:14] <fhocutt>	 sure, will do
[17:34:21] <sumanah>	 Thanks
[17:34:27] <sumanah>	 ok fhocutt and do you need any help on the Ruby work?
[17:34:59] <fhocutt>	 I don't think so. 
[17:35:31] <sumanah>	 OK! so it sounds like you are set fhocutt. Is it reasonable for me to hope for you to be Done with the evaluations, Ruby & Java both,  by our 1:1 tomorrow?
[17:37:24] <fhocutt>	 I *think* so. 
[17:37:48] <sumanah>	 fhocutt: if you don't mind setting that as a goal, I think that would be cool, and I could pretend to blow a kazoo and throw confetti
[17:38:24] <sumanah>	 I can also hold these partymaking instruments in abeyance and use them on Thursday though fhocutt :)
[17:38:32] * fhocutt grins
[17:38:35] <fhocutt>	 we will see what happens.
[17:38:38] <sumanah>	 OK :)
[17:38:58] <sumanah>	 take care of yourself, enjoy tea, do what thou wilt an it harm none, &c., &c.
[17:41:08] <sumanah>	 RoanKattouw: you're back!
[17:43:10] <RoanKattouw>	 Yes!
[17:44:16] <marktraceur>	 Oh god
[17:48:50] <sumanah>	 RoanKattouw: I hope you are doing well and had a good trip?
[17:49:37] <RoanKattouw>	 Yup, got back yesterday and doing well
[17:49:55] <RoanKattouw>	 Trip was good except for the few days where I wasn't feeling well
[18:00:21] <sumanah>	 RoanKattouw: if you have a moment I'd love some examples re something from the architecture guidelines
[18:00:30] <sumanah>	 "It has been proposed that service classes (with complex logic and external dependencies) be separated from value classes (which are lightweight and easily constructed)." can you gimme an example of each of those types?
[18:00:36] <sumanah>	 from the MediaWiki codebase, core preferably?
[18:01:27] <RoanKattouw>	 Sure
[18:01:31] <RoanKattouw>	  /Existing/ examples, hmm...
[18:01:33] <RoanKattouw>	 Have you posed this question to Daniel Kinzler?
[18:01:43] <sumanah>	 no!
[18:01:48] <RoanKattouw>	 You may want to
[18:01:51] <sumanah>	 I just came up with it while talking with a random person
[18:01:57] <RoanKattouw>	 The whole value classes/objects thing is his hobby horse
[18:02:17] <RoanKattouw>	 Remember the Title rewrite stuff he was talking about at Wikimania HK and the architecture summit?
[18:02:27] <sumanah>	 yep
[18:03:14] <RoanKattouw>	 OK so Message would probably be a good example of a value class
[18:03:34] <RoanKattouw>	 It's lightweight to construct, and we construct Message objects all the time (every time you call wfMessage() for instance)
[18:04:33] <RoanKattouw>	 It has some internal state, but not much, and its only job is to represent a message with parameters, which you can then resolve into a string
[18:04:38] <RoanKattouw>	 And then you typically just throw it away
[18:06:04] <RoanKattouw>	 It doesn't depend on anything, it doesn't have complex interactions with other subsystems (well, except for the message fetching system I suppose), and there are no side effects or other reasons why you couldn't create an instance and then throw it away 2 lines of code later, hundreds of times over; which in fact is exactly what we do all the time
[18:06:25] <RoanKattouw>	 As for a service class, hmm..
[18:06:50] <MatmaRex>	 ResourceLoader? :)
[18:06:55] <RoanKattouw>	 hah
[18:07:07] <RoanKattouw>	 Yeah I guess ResourceLoader is a service class
[18:07:31] <RoanKattouw>	 But maybe I should choose something people are more likely to be familiar with
[18:07:47] <RoanKattouw>	 There aren't any real value classes in RL anyway (except maybe for ResourceLoaderContext and ResourceLoaderModule)
[18:09:03] <RoanKattouw>	 I guess things like ObjectCache and Database would be service classes
[18:09:21] <RoanKattouw>	 They don't represent values, instead they perform actions
[18:09:51] <RoanKattouw>	 IIRC Daniel's main thing about this split is that you shouldn't have objects that represent values, but also perform actions
[18:10:18] <RoanKattouw>	 But instead you should have a service object that performs actions, and is given a value object that it gets information from
[18:10:24] <RoanKattouw>	 For instance, right now a Title can move itself
[18:10:59] <RoanKattouw>	 (Title is the one Daniel picked on, because it's something that should semi-obviously be a value class but instead is a total behemoth that depends on almost everything it could possibly depend on)
[18:11:56] <RoanKattouw>	 So instead of a Title moving itself, you'd have a Title just represent the name of a page and have logic to do with formatting that name and stuff, and have a service object that will perform a move given a source Title and a target Title
[18:12:36] <RoanKattouw>	 Same for existence: instead of doing $title->exists() , you'd have an existence checking service that you hand $title to and it tells you if it exists or not
[18:13:49] <RoanKattouw>	 This kind of hooks into Service-Oriented Architecture too because it allows you to detach things. For instance, if you wanted to check whether a title existed on some other wiki, you would just pass the same object to a different checker service
[18:14:47] <RoanKattouw>	 The current way is there mostly because it's convenient ($title->exists() vs PageService::singleton()->exists( $title ) or whatever) for simple cases, but it makes dealing with complex cases much harder, and it makes the dependency situation more complex
[18:14:56] <RoanKattouw>	 sumanah: Was the ranting above useful to you?
[18:14:57] <sumanah>	 RoanKattouw: who came up with these categories/names? are they well-known PHP things? "value" vs "service" classes)
[18:15:06] <RoanKattouw>	 Uhm, I don't know
[18:15:08] <sumanah>	 RoanKattouw: I am still pondering, please hold
[18:15:19] <RoanKattouw>	 I'd never heard of a "value object" until Kinzler started talking about it
[18:15:42] <RoanKattouw>	 But it seems like a sensible concept to me
[18:16:42] <sumanah>	 when you summarize Daniel's belief "you shouldn't have objects that represent values, but also perform actions" - you mean Daniel believes that objects should not BOTH represent values and perform actions. Correct?
[18:18:32] <sumanah>	 RoanKattouw: because if that's right, then I think your explanation makes sense to me
[18:20:32] <sumanah>	 also I don't know PHP very well so I feel like I don't have taste yet, I don't know what should feel expressive & concise versus icky and overloaded in a precarious way
[18:22:06] <RoanKattouw>	 sumanah: Yes, each individual class should choose one or the other but not both
[18:22:57] <sumanah>	 RoanKattouw: I appreciate you taking the time to explain this
[18:23:05] <RoanKattouw>	 Yeah for sure
[18:23:10] <RoanKattouw>	 Sorry for the slow response, I got distracted
[18:23:17] <sumanah>	 RoanKattouw: I think I'm set. Oh no worries
[18:23:20] <RoanKattouw>	 OK cool
[18:23:46] <RoanKattouw>	 Re concision, the following translates pretty well to Python (and most other languages that have classes):
[18:24:01] <sumanah>	 RoanKattouw: in your COPIOUS FREE TIME you may want to skim https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment#Ready_for_discussion_.28author_needs_specific_feedback.29 - I reorganized the RfC page so now it's clearer what needs feedback from people like you
[18:24:24] <RoanKattouw>	 Having an 'exists' method on Title so you can do myTitle.exists() is more concise than having to get a TitleExistenceChecker from somewhere, then calling .doesTitleExist( title ) on that object
[18:24:34] <sumanah>	 right
[18:24:46] <RoanKattouw>	 It's also the more intuitive way to go if you're just starting out
[18:25:04] <RoanKattouw>	 (starting out building this Title concept in like 2003 I mean)
[18:27:26] <sumanah>	 RoanKattouw: I may have talked with you about how my view on what is "intuitive" is very skewed
[18:27:33] <sumanah>	 because I am a better software engineer than I am a coder
[18:27:44] <RoanKattouw>	 Right
[18:28:48] <sumanah>	 but I totally get that it is initially easier than building out the architecture in a more service-oriented way
[18:29:39] <RoanKattouw>	 Well for most people, in my experience, it tends to be that when faced with a problem like "oh we need a way to check if a title exists", the first thing they think of is adding an .exists() method to the title
[18:29:51] <RoanKattouw>	 as opposed to coming up with this whole service thing
[18:29:53] <RoanKattouw>	 Yeah exactly
[18:30:10] * sumanah is an outlier. what a surprise. </sarcasm>
[18:30:11] <RoanKattouw>	 Service-oriented architecture requires you to sit down and think about the whole system at once
[18:30:21] <RoanKattouw>	 What we have now is more like what you get when you just build things on the fly
[18:30:35] <sumanah>	 I remember Ori saying a particular component grew "like mold on a shower curtain"
[18:30:40] <RoanKattouw>	 Oh yes
[18:30:51] <RoanKattouw>	 That happens all the time
[18:30:57] <sumanah>	 yep
[18:31:04] <sumanah>	 and in fact my toy project(s) are more like that
[18:31:10] <RoanKattouw>	 Exactly!
[18:31:14] <sumanah>	 but anyway, I am distracting you from Important Things
[18:31:16] <RoanKattouw>	 And that, right there, is probably why you're an outlier
[18:31:25] <sumanah>	 wait, what? explain?
[18:31:40] <RoanKattouw>	 Because for most people, those toy projects are the first time they ever think about anything resembling software architecture
[18:32:12] <RoanKattouw>	 They're sort of forced to think about it as their projects grow to the size where you need that kind of thinking
[18:34:08] <sumanah>	 Harriet J of Fugitivus talked about a related issue once. 
[18:34:29] <sumanah>	 https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:RYT6-HGwR5gJ:www.fugitivus.net/2010/06/21/unserious-blog-post/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=ubuntu
[18:35:13] <sumanah>	 she grew up without much access to informal learning about food & cooking
[18:35:18] <sumanah>	 "So, once I was an adult, I got The Joy of Cooking and decided it was like a Bible. This is like the Normal People Manual. If I do what it says in here, I will cook like Normal People."
[18:35:25] <sumanah>	 "I knew what creme fraiche tasted like, and how to prepare it, before I knew how to make tacos or a lazy stir-fry."
[18:35:50] <sumanah>	 oh her site is up, just slow - http://www.fugitivus.net/2010/06/21/unserious-blog-post/
[18:36:52] <RoanKattouw>	 Right, hah
[18:36:59] <RoanKattouw>	 Yeah that's similar
[18:37:12] <RoanKattouw>	 I was about to compare it to how European cities are laid out
[18:37:41] <RoanKattouw>	 Newer developments are often well-planned, but the downtowns are all organic growth
[18:37:57] <RoanKattouw>	 Because there, a city literally is a village that happened to grow out of control
[18:38:15] <sumanah>	 RoanKattouw: when I started writing Where On The Oregon Trail is Carmen Sandiego?, there was a moment where I actually grokked -- now through experience! -- why it makes sense to lay out a .py file the way I had usually seen them laid out, in terms of what comes first and then second and so on and last
[18:38:24] <RoanKattouw>	 Right :)
[18:39:20] <RoanKattouw>	 That's earlier on in the learning process, but yeah, it's all about coming up with strategies to deal with growth
[18:39:26] <sumanah>	 right
[18:40:24] <sumanah>	 btw fhocutt ^ right there is one reason I love working in this community, is people like RoanKattouw who are ready and happy to teach without judgment
[18:40:25] <RoanKattouw>	 As developers gain experience they tend to start projects very differently
[18:40:33] <marktraceur>	 RoanKattouw: Obviously European cities need better population control
[18:40:54] <RoanKattouw>	 Because they have learned about what growth looks like and what the pitfalls are, and they can anticipate how big this project will get and what coping strategies it will need
[18:41:20] <sumanah>	 RoanKattouw: right.
[18:41:51] <RoanKattouw>	 I mean obviously this is limited by the extent to which the developer actually has this experience (which is why it changes over time), and the accuracy of their estimate of how complex it will get (which totally-not-shockingly is often wrong)
[18:42:17] * sumanah laughs knowingly
[18:46:58] <sumanah>	 gwicke: got a moment?
[19:09:45] <rarityfan>	 how do you add a logo to mwzip sites?
[19:13:26] <sumanah>	 hi rarityfan 
[19:13:41] <sumanah>	 rarityfan: I had not heard of MWZip until just now
[19:13:48] <sumanah>	 !logo
[19:13:48] <wm-bot>	 The logo that appears in the top left of each page is from $wgLogo in LocalSettings.php. To change this you change the value of $wgLogo to point to the URL of your own logo. See <http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:%24wgLogo>. Be sure $wgLogo is set to an absolute path, starting with "/" (or a protocol "http:"/"https:"). Using pretty URLs a relative path will behave oddly. 135x135 pixels
[19:13:54] <sumanah>	 rarityfan: ^ does that help?
[19:16:01] <rarityfan>	 9_9
[19:17:14] <sumanah>	 rarityfan: what does that mean?
[19:17:50] <rarityfan>	 well um, the mediawiki is already installed in mwzip. i don't have access to php
[19:17:53] <rarityfan>	 *the
[19:18:22] <sumanah>	 rarityfan: Perhaps you could ask MWZip (I believe they are your hosting provider) how to make this change?
[19:18:35] <rarityfan>	 oh yeah
[19:18:38] <rarityfan>	 thanks
[19:19:02] <sumanah>	 Good luck rarityfan.
[19:19:44] <rarityfan>	 merci
[19:41:54] <arto>	 hi! i'm installing mediawiki locally on my machine, but i'm stuck on mw-config/index.php?page=DBConnect
[19:42:02] <arto>	 i'm using postgres as a database
[19:42:08] <marktraceur>	 Eugh.
[19:42:11] <marktraceur>	 !postgres
[19:42:16] <marktraceur>	 !postgresql
[19:42:19] <marktraceur>	 ...
[19:42:21] <marktraceur>	 !pg
[19:42:21] <wm-bot>	 There is no such key, you probably want to try: !anglebrackets, !downgrade, !hss, !morbo, !noshell, !php531, !shell, !update.php, !upgrade, !wikipedia, !yoda, 
[19:42:26] <marktraceur>	 Never mind.
[19:42:30] <arto>	 marktraceur: ?
[19:42:30] <marktraceur>	 arto: Postgres is hard
[19:42:48] <marktraceur>	 There's one guy who maintains the code, and for the most part we don't really do much with it
[19:42:56] <arto>	 marktraceur: ok. so... should i try mysql or something?
[19:43:13] <marktraceur>	 arto: I would suggest so, if you can
[19:43:18] <brion>	 unless you’re interested in helping maintain non-mysql support in mediawiki, you should use mysql or mariadb
[19:45:48] <arto>	 ok. thanks. gonna try sqlite first.
[19:46:01] <wmat>	 bummer, as I'm about to move a wiki to an Oracle DB (not by choice)
[19:54:23] <arto>	 it worked. thanks for your help people. bye!
[20:20:57] <sumanah>	 RoanKattouw: thanks for your explanation earlier, which I've edited a little and put at the bottom of https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Architecture_guidelines#Clear_separation_of_concerns 
[20:22:26] <rarityfan>	 does anyone know any hosting services that provide free hosting and extension installation?
[20:29:36] <sumanah>	 hey qgil 
[20:29:55] <sumanah>	 qgil: got a moment to PM? I know it is evening where you are
[20:37:49] <qgil>	 sumanah, sure
[20:48:09] <RoanKattouw>	 sumanah: Awesome. Also, I reiterate my recommendation that you pick Kinzler's brain about this topic
[22:05:05] <sumanah>	 fhocutt: I am about to enjoy some quality time with an evening :) anything you need before I head off?
[22:14:08] <sumanah>	 fhocutt: See ya later! Call me if you need anything.
[23:08:02] <pwca>	 hi, I am installing the math extension to my MediaWiki server. I am wondering what is a good place to put my math folder.
[23:08:19] <pwca>	 ie, $wgMathDirectory and $wgMathPath.
[23:21:10] <Mojo__>	 Hi! I'm just wondering what common reasons would be that shared cookie domains for a family of Wikis won't work? Originally, I had three wikis set up like this: www.mywiki.com/wiki1, www.mywiki.com/wiki2, and www.mywiki.com/wiki3, each using it's own installation. Now, the three are sharing one installation, and are set up like: wiki1.mywiki.com, wiki2.mywiki.com, and wiki3.mywiki.com. Since this change, shared logins no longer wo
[23:22:32] <LilMissRarity>	 Mojo__: It depends on what you mean by "shared cookie domains".
[23:23:05] <Mojo__>	 LilMissRarity - A shared database type deal, http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Shared_database
[23:23:40] <bawolff>	 !wg CookieDomain | Mojo__ 
[23:23:40] <wm-bot>	 Mojo__: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:%24wgCookieDomain
[23:24:09] <LilMissRarity>	 ^
[23:33:23] <pwca>	 / Set this if you don't use MediaWiki Math's texvc:
[23:33:29] <pwca>	 so I don't need to set this?
[23:33:37] <pwca>	 the variable is: $wgTexvc
[23:41:21] <pwca>	 yeah, the Math install doesn't work. I don't know what I am doing wrong.