[02:41:30] <Betacommand>	 !lts
[02:41:30] <wm-bot>	 Current long-term support release is 1.23. The legacy lts is 1.19 and will be supported until May 2015. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Version_lifecycle#Versions_and_their_end-of-life
[02:48:26] <James_F>	 Betacommand: "LTS" is a complete lie. There's no support at all beyond best-efforts on security patches for core.
[02:49:20] <Betacommand>	 James_F: its not a lie. Having a long term stable version to recommend to users is critical
[02:49:40] <James_F>	 "Critical" is a measure of value to users.
[02:49:48] <James_F>	 "Lie" is a statement about whether we deliver it.
[02:50:25] <James_F>	 There's no official third-party-support organisation for MediaWiki, which sucks a lot.
[02:50:44] <James_F>	 But going around claiming things are supported long-term when they're not supported even short-term just adds frustration.
[02:52:36] <Betacommand>	 James_F: From what Ive seen any major security issue is supported thru LTS, and beyond that most issues are fixed at or during release
[02:53:24] <James_F>	 Betacommand: Because we're Nice People™ and feel morally bound to help people using foolishly-old versions.
[02:53:26] <Trela>	 MW tends to support LTS security patches for about one to two years.
[02:54:01] <Trela>	 Though it really seems to depend on "How hard will this be to patch into old code?"
[02:54:22] <James_F>	 Betacommand: When I was a third-party user of MediaWiki my security advice for myself and interested others was "employ someone to keep it semi-current, and don't for goodness's sake customise it too much or use odd extensions".
[02:54:35] <Betacommand>	 James_F: the non-LTS versions require upgrading 2-3 times a year, vs every few years
[02:54:47] <James_F>	 Err. What? No?
[02:55:23] <James_F>	 There's a major version release every six months, and security patches are attempted for a year after release, I believe.
[02:55:28] <Trela>	 Why would you not upgrade at LEAST every year?
[02:55:55] <James_F>	 Trela: To be fair, some people are on very lean set-ups.
[02:56:22] <James_F>	 People marooned on LTS islands have a terrible time moving to the next version.
[02:56:26] <Betacommand>	 Trela: doing so in a production environment can be a pain and time sink that most people dont have 
[02:56:48] <Betacommand>	 James_F: moving from LTS to LTS is fairly easy
[02:57:28] <James_F>	 Betacommand: If it's easy it's because you've got no odd stuff, in which moving from version to version is equally trivial but with lower risk.
[02:58:10] <Trela>	 I have a team of two people, including myself, that will be deploying the 1.26 update, moving from 1.23, to 1,000+ wikis by the end of December/beginning of January.  Tons of custom extensions, lots of updates.  It is entirely doable.
[02:58:36] <Betacommand>	 James_F: not really, version to version Ive seen a hell of a lot more stuff break/change and ended up with time sinks/down time figuring out what changed
[02:59:04] <James_F>	 Betacommand: That doesn't make sense. LTS -> LTS is 6x as much breaking changes as version -> version.
[02:59:13] <James_F>	 The worst bit is how many people ask me for support for installing VisualEditor. :-(
[02:59:36] <James_F>	 Everyone pulls master and then is confused it doesn't work with MW 1.23.
[02:59:45] <James_F>	 Master doesn't even work with MW 1.26.
[03:00:05] <Betacommand>	 James_F: it might be that much commutative but your doing it once every 2 years, vs twice a year
[03:00:06] <Trela>	 James_F: Yep.  I am adopting a strategy of moving each point release on MW now.  Each point release upgrade is much less painful than jumping several versions.
[03:00:27] <James_F>	 Betacommand: Three years, and once a year.
[03:00:42] <James_F>	 Trela: Good to hear. Good luck.
[03:00:55] <Skizzerz>	 to be fair, the VE installation documentation is rather garbage :P (I know, I know, it's a wiki, go fix it, be bold, etc...)
[03:01:07] <Betacommand>	 James_F: 24,25 & 26 where released within a year of eachother.
[03:01:11] <James_F>	 Skizzerz: It's because we keep re-writing the integration.
[03:01:18] <Skizzerz>	 or rather, it's rather garbage for old VE versions
[03:01:24] <Skizzerz>	 I'm sure it's great for master
[03:01:33] <James_F>	 Betacommand: By one day. Be reasonable.
[03:01:42] <Skizzerz>	 but when installing VE for a 1.25 wiki I didn't know I needed to name the parsoid instance "local" for it to work until I started digging through code
[03:01:46] <Betacommand>	 thats at least three times a year, vs once every few years
[03:01:48] <James_F>	 Shanmugamp7: It's not.
[03:02:00] <James_F>	 Skizzerz: Sorry. :-(
[03:02:12] <James_F>	 Bah, mis-tab.
[03:02:13] <Trela>	 Skizzerz: I am going to email that to my DevOps admin right now.  XD
[03:02:36] <Skizzerz>	 well "local" is the default
[03:02:41] <Skizzerz>	 I just changed it to be special :P
[03:02:48] <James_F>	 Trela: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension_talk:VisualEditor is in a bit of a woeful state, sadly.
[03:03:09] <Skizzerz>	 (or rather, I changed it because I was anticipating powering two wikis with the single parsoid instance, and local wasn't descriptive of either)
[03:03:41] <Skizzerz>	 now I'm trying to wrangle why Math hates me
[03:03:51] <Skizzerz>	 and doesn't render equations
[03:04:04] <Trela>	 Skizzerz: Are you running Ubuntu 12?
[03:04:12] <Skizzerz>	 like 95% certain it's a browser issue of some sort
[03:04:16] <Skizzerz>	 nope
[03:04:27] <Skizzerz>	 the wikis are on ubuntu server 14.04
[03:04:37] <Skizzerz>	 my client is windows
[03:04:47] <Trela>	 Ah... Problem I had with it not rendering was that the libraries for Ubuntu's package manager were out of date.
[03:05:04] <James_F>	 Skizzerz: Seen the brand-new-not-yet-in-WMF-production Math VE integration? http://en.wikipedia.beta.wmflabs.org/wiki/Math?veaction=edit
[03:05:08] <TimStarling>	 Betacommand: so you support a review of that RFC?
[03:05:15] <Skizzerz>	 ah, well I'm not doing tex rendering
[03:05:18] <Skizzerz>	 doing mathml
[03:05:33] <Skizzerz>	 didn't feel like downloading gigabytes of packages for tex :P
[03:05:39] <Betacommand>	 TimStarling: Yeah, I think the 5.6 move should happen after the LTS
[03:05:50] <TimStarling>	 ok
[03:05:52] <Trela>	 James_F: Oh, that is HOT.
[03:05:53] <James_F>	 Betacommand: And if there's no such thing as an LTS?
[03:05:54] <Skizzerz>	 James_F: oooooh!
[03:05:59] <Skizzerz>	 that looks super sweet
[03:06:09] <Betacommand>	 otherwise your going to have a lot of wikis stuck on 1.23 or not upgrading
[03:06:11] <James_F>	 We had to pre-render ~ 1000 SVGs of different formula fragments.
[03:06:18] <James_F>	 The syntax highlighting was nice to get done.
[03:07:15] <Trela>	 Which will be the next LTS?
[03:07:28] <Betacommand>	 Trela: 1.27
[03:07:40] <Trela>	 Thanks.  :D
[03:08:04] <James_F>	 TimStarling: :-(
[03:08:46] <Skizzerz>	 speaking of RFCs I should probably work some more on the "splitting db abstractions out of core" one
[03:09:08] <Skizzerz>	 (or rather, splitting the "unofficial" ones out)
[03:09:47] <Betacommand>	 Trela: dev on 1.27 is already underway, so setting the break point at 1.28 works even better
[03:10:45] <Trela>	 Break point for the PHP bump?
[03:10:59] <Betacommand>	 Trela: yeah
[03:11:02] <Betacommand>	 we are at 1.27.0-wmf.7
[03:11:48] <legoktm>	 Isn't the whole thing still theoretical until WMF actually moves off 5.3?
[03:12:07] <James_F>	 legoktm: We have moved.
[03:12:11] <Betacommand>	 legoktm: most servers are on 5.6 I think
[03:12:23] <legoktm>	 legoktm@tin:~$ php -v
[03:12:23] <legoktm>	 PHP 5.3.10-1ubuntu3.20+wmf1 with Suhosin-Patch (cli) (built: Oct  1 2015 09:55:22) 
[03:12:26] <James_F>	 Betacommand: No, Zend 5.5 or HHVM.
[03:12:39] <James_F>	 legoktm: Tin is the only box not on Zend 5.5 or HHVM.
[03:12:45] <Skizzerz>	 excellent choice!
[03:12:48] <James_F>	 legoktm: You're meant to not use tin any more, or something.
[03:12:49] <legoktm>	 My point :)
[03:12:59] <legoktm>	 [19:05:04] <James_F> Skizzerz: Seen the brand-new-not-yet-in-WMF-production Math VE integration? http://en.wikipedia.beta.wmflabs.org/wiki/Math?veaction=edit <-- That is super cool.
[03:12:59] <James_F>	 legoktm: There was an e-mail. Or was going to be one.
[03:13:15] <James_F>	 legoktm: Thanks. Thalia's work, mostly. :-)
[03:13:31] <James_F>	 (She's working on the same for the Score extension for sheet music.)
[03:13:32] <legoktm>	 Now I don't have to learn latex :P
[03:13:44] <Skizzerz>	 ooh
[03:13:51] <Skizzerz>	 that's something sorely needed
[03:13:58] <Skizzerz>	 for that niche, at any rate
[03:14:11] <James_F>	 Right now it's a bit sad: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Happy_Birthday_to_You&veaction=edit&vesection=2
[03:14:13] <Skizzerz>	 but I can't think of any good free graphical sheet music program offhand
[03:14:33] <Skizzerz>	 granted, I haven't looked all that hard and last time I looked was years ago, but still
[03:14:38] <James_F>	 Skizzerz: Yeah, cloning Sibelius will take a few person-millennia.
[03:15:22] <Skizzerz>	 I think feature-parity with Finale/Sibelius is likely not worth it, rather just a sensible interface to do basic stuff (maybe with keyboard input if that isn't too hard)
[03:15:33] <Skizzerz>	 but keyboard input may not work over a webapp
[03:15:43] <James_F>	 Skizzerz: Actually, for WMF's needs Sibelius is insufficient (world music support isn't enough), apparently.
[03:15:49] * James_F isn't an expert, though.
[03:16:08] * Skizzerz isn't either, he also has finale instead so doesn't know what sibelius does/doesn't have
[03:16:11] <James_F>	 And I'm not sure if Web<->MIDI bridges exist. :-)
[03:16:22] <legoktm>	 midioid
[03:16:32] <Skizzerz>	 I just do some light composition every now and then for kicks
[03:16:47] <James_F>	 legoktm: Hush you. :-)
[03:16:55] <Skizzerz>	 lol
[03:17:08] <James_F>	 Anyway, I'm off.
[03:17:11] <Skizzerz>	 except that'd still have the same issue, since an -oid runs on the serverside of things
[03:17:17] <Skizzerz>	 whereas we'd need some sort of client program here
[03:17:42] <Skizzerz>	 I'm also probably not qualified at all to talk about any of this \:D/
[03:18:04] * Skizzerz puts on a white lab coat
[03:18:32] <Trela>	 Just have a PHP based MW RunJob that runs a Node.js wrapper which accepts API endpoints from third party vendor software!
[03:20:25] <Trela>	 Now I actually want to figure out a "Midioid" kind of interface.
[06:43:32] <Amgine>	 <blinks at backscroll> 
[06:43:39] <Amgine>	 Skizzerz: but I can't think of any good free graphical sheet music program offhand <- Lillypond?
[11:50:40] <PJosepherum>	 hey has anybody successfully configured mediawiki to use postfix for SMTP? I've confirmed that my SMTP server works but I am hitting an error in MW: "SMTP: STARTTLS failed (code: 220, response: 2.0.0 Ready to start TLS)]"
[11:51:31] <andre__>	 PJosepherum, https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgSMTP#Error_sending_mail:_authentication_failure_SMTP:_STARTTLS
[11:51:48] <PJosepherum>	 oh nice one haha :)
[11:53:40] <PJosepherum>	 hmm just wondering where i might find more info about the issue. the certificate works as it is responsible for https on that domain, and i am able to use the SMTP server via telnet or an email client
[12:32:51] <colonolGron>	 hi
[12:33:47] <colonolGron>	 From an URL like https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:乙-bw.png is there a way to get the correct link to the actual image? I mean is there a standard path that I can use to get files with and just exchange the $chinesecharacter ?
[12:33:57] <colonolGron>	 so I can use wget in a script
[12:46:15] <MatmaRex>	 colonolGron: the path is standard, but it's probably not that easy to generate.
[12:46:35] <MatmaRex>	 e.g. for that file, it's https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/乙-bw.png - the "3" and "38" part is based on a SHA1 of image file name.
[12:46:47] <MatmaRex>	 colonolGron: you can use the API to get the URL for any file.
[12:47:22] <MatmaRex>	 for exmaple: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:ApiSandbox#action=query&prop=imageinfo&format=json&iiprop=url&titles=File%3A乙-bw.png
[12:47:30] <MatmaRex>	 https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/api.php?action=query&prop=imageinfo&format=json&iiprop=url&titles=File%3A%E4%B9%99-bw.png
[12:50:32] <colonolGron>	 MatmaRex, oh oh, confusing :)
[12:50:39] <colonolGron>	 MatmaRex, i will give it a try, thanks!
[12:55:25] <darsie>	 How can I find out which QuestyCaptcha answers were used by spammers?
[12:56:54] <darsie>	 I've come up with some questions and answers, but I don't want to discard them all if there is new spam.
[13:10:49] <darsie>	 I wish it was easier to delete 80,000 spam user accounts.
[13:22:12] <wmat>	 darsie: just run removeUnusedAccounts
[13:29:26] <Tuju>	 hi, my site is one of the rare ones that authenticates users using client side certificates.
[13:30:01] <Tuju>	 today i got surprised that someone created a spam page and passed by that cert login
[13:30:19] <Tuju>	 so obviously i've something set wrong in config
[13:30:35] <Tuju>	 https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Configuration_settings#Authentication
[13:31:47] <Tuju>	 i think I'm using this https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:SSL_authentication
[13:39:38] <zeroair_w>	 can anyone tell me how do I get something within a table into the TOC?
[13:43:49] <MatmaRex>	 use a heading, i guess…
[13:48:20] <Niharika>	 I have an extension with a parser function, but most of the accessor functions of the parser object handed to me return NULL. (https://doc.wikimedia.org/mediawiki-core/master/php/classParser.html) getRevisionUser() etc. What could be a possible reason? 
[13:50:40] <basisbit>	 what is your suggestion regarding multilanguage-wiki? do you suggest using one namespace for each language and some translation plugin or set up a separate mediawiki for each language?
[13:52:18] <p858snake>	 !e Translate | basisbit
[13:52:18] <wm-bot>	 basisbit: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Translate_
[13:52:37] <p858snake>	 running multiple wikis can get a bit complicated
[13:55:21] <zeroair_w>	 MatmaRex: how would I use a heading in such a way? (to make it show in the TOC?)
[13:56:16] <MatmaRex>	 zeroair_w: i don't understand the question. i think it should just work. what exactly are you doing that doesn't work?
[13:56:55] <zeroair_w>	 I want to have a page with just tables (no outside data) and some data from those tables to populate the TOC
[13:58:41] <zeroair_w>	 better yet, one large table (for example "years" of data) with each year being listed in the TOC
[14:04:02] <zeroair_w>	 does that make more sense MatmaRex?
[14:14:17] <zeroair_w>	 ok instead of any of the above - how about a way to have something show in the TOC without it showing in the body of the page?
[14:16:55] <MatmaRex>	 no :D i want to see the wikitext you're having problems with
[14:17:06] <MatmaRex>	 you can always construct a table of contents by hand.
[15:27:20] <usrnix>	 hi, I have parsoid setup on with the following config but VisualEditor is getting a 404 from parsoid, help?: ({ prefix: 'mydomain', uri: 'http://wiki.mydomain.net/api.php', domain: 'mydomain' });
[15:27:21] <usrnix>	 With LocalSettings.php: require_once "$IP/extensions/VisualEditor/VisualEditor.php";$wgVirtualRestConfig['modules']['parsoid'] = array( 'url' => 'http://localhost:8142', 'domain' => 'mydomain', );
[16:01:37] <usrnix>	 fixed it, overlooked defining $wgVisualEditorParsoidURL
[17:14:34] <darsie>	 wmat: But the accounts aren't completely unused. There must be some log entries or something from them. I alreade deleted the spam and user pages and deleted the archived revisions.
[17:34:05] <wmat>	 darsie: try running the script without any options and it will tell you how many accounts it would delete
[17:34:20] <wmat>	 darsie: note that it won't delete anything until you give it the --delete option
[17:53:15] <darsie>	 wmat: Yes, it would delete 5 of 80,000 accounts.
[18:02:13] <wmat>	 darsie: ouch
[18:02:59] <darsie>	 Many user pages still show a deletion log entry instead of 'this page does not exist'.
[18:07:08] <wmat>	 i think you have to run the deleteArchivedRevisions.php script to get rid of any history of deleted pages
[18:07:22] <darsie>	 I did that, IIRC.
[18:10:40] <darsie>	 I have these log entries: http://www.bksys.at/ecowiki/Special:Log/delete
[18:18:01] <wmat>	 right, and if I click on a User pagename I'm prompted to Create it, as in it doesn't exist. Are you saying you want to clear the Deletion log?
[18:21:56] <darsie>	 wmat: If that's what keeps removeUnusedAccounts.php from deleting, yes.
[18:24:00] <wmat>	 darsie: i don't think it should as the docs for removeUnusedAccounts actually says to run deleteArchivedRevisions first
[18:24:33] <darsie>	 It says: "An unused account is one which has no edits, no deleted edits, no log entries (task T36581), and no current/old uploads."
[18:25:26] <darsie>	 I could try to analyze the script to see what it checks.
[18:25:38] <wmat>	 you're running the latest stable MW?
[18:25:46] <darsie>	 no, 1.19 or so.
[18:25:55] <darsie>	 the debian version.
[18:26:00] <wmat>	 oh
[18:26:22] <wmat>	 removeUnusedAccounts has been patched since then
[18:26:44] <darsie>	 hmm
[22:00:52] <MC8>	 is there a cheap way to basically Special:SuffixIndex/Foo
[22:02:36] <Reedy>	 Yes
[22:02:49] <Reedy>	 Store a reversed version of the title, and index that
[22:03:10] <Reedy>	 then strrev( 'Foo' ) against the reversed column
[22:04:29] <Reedy>	 "cheap"
[23:55:29] <MC8>	 that explains why mediawiki doesn't ship a suffixindex, I guess
[23:56:42] <RoanKattouw>	 Exactly