[00:00:46] <Krenair>	 CZauX, <Reedy> Because it's probably not a good idea that MW can arbitarily write to the root dir and create files
[00:02:27] <CZauX>	 In theory, but other frameworks do it just fine in practice. Not having an update mechanism adds another layer of complexity on those looking to make their own wiki's
[00:03:53] <Krenair>	 it doesn't add anything
[00:04:08] <Krenair>	 it just doesn't take away the complexity that is modifying the application's files
[00:06:21] <CZauX>	 Comparatively, it does add more work than other solutions, and leaves sites that aren't consistently maintained by a sysadmin vulnerable.
[00:06:50] <Krenair>	 sites that aren't maintained by sysadmins are vulnerable
[00:07:35] <Krenair>	 don't have systems that you aren't prepared to maintain
[00:08:50] <ratdeptrai1>	 Please forgive my ignorance if this is the wrong place to ask, but I'm writing a bot which parses template-usages, and having a hard time to understand the syntax.
[00:09:02] <ratdeptrai1>	 In particular if a template usage's parameters can have comments embedded like <!--comment-->, how is a character string like "<!--" which appears in a parameter's value to be encoded?
[00:09:39] <CZauX>	 Not true, plenty of sites survive quite well on automated setups. Its not that people 'don't want to maintain' it, its the problem of the best people to contribute to wiki's have better things to do in a day.
[00:09:46] <Krenair>	 a template usage's parameters, ratdeptrai1? what do you have in mind?
[00:10:45] <ratdeptrai1>	 Krenair: I'm parsing the template usage, and I don't see how I can differentiate between comments to be ignored <!--comment-->, or a parameter's value that contains the text "<!--comment-->"
[00:10:55] <Krenair>	 no
[00:10:58] <Krenair>	 by 'the template usage'
[00:11:01] <Krenair>	 show me what you mean
[00:13:13] <ratdeptrai1>	 OK, from the Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=.308_Winchester&action=edit
[00:13:53] <ratdeptrai1>	 ... we see the parameter "|pressure_method2=SAAMI\n<!-- Ballistic performance -->"
[00:14:31] <Krenair>	 the parameter pressure_method2 with value "SAAMI\n<!-- Ballistic performance -->\n<!-- Ballistic data, load 1 -->", yes
[00:14:57] <ratdeptrai1>	 But when rendered, the comment is stripped out.
[00:15:24] <Krenair>	 yeah
[00:16:02] <ratdeptrai1>	 Now, if the editor had intented the parameter "pressure_method2" to have the value "SAAMI\n<!--Ballistic performance -->", with the <!-- etc. to be actually rendered, how would he have encoded/escaped it?
[00:16:09] <Krenair>	 ah
[00:16:18] <Krenair>	 wouldn't you just &lt;!-- ?
[00:16:55] <Krenair>	 with &gt; for the > ?
[00:17:02] <ratdeptrai1>	 Perhaps, but I have not seen any documentation that indicates that < is not a valid character in a parameter's value.
[00:17:16] <Krenair>	 you're conflating two entirely separate things
[00:17:23] <ratdeptrai1>	 Is there some list of characters that should be represented as entities rather than themselves?
[00:17:45] <ratdeptrai1>	 Yes, I am quite naive, first time I've looked at MediaWiki.
[00:17:52] <Krenair>	 or at least, you probably are. the parser is crazy, I don't read that code
[00:18:17] <ratdeptrai1>	 But I am having a very hard time finding any formal documentation of, e.g. the syntax of templates.
[00:18:37] <Krenair>	 there are comments and there are templates
[00:18:45] <ratdeptrai1>	 There are lots of examples, but a formal reference would be far more useful.
[00:18:51] <Krenair>	 I don't think there's any particular special behaviour when you combine them by putting comments inside templates
[00:19:11] <Krenair>	 even if you do so by putting them in via the template's parameters
[00:19:11] <ratdeptrai1>	 OK, I guess that makes sense.
[00:19:40] <Krenair>	 maybe there's some magic about stripping them out of parameter keys or something but that's not what is going on here
[00:20:22] <ratdeptrai1>	 Ah, I see what you mean.  The comments _did_ get expanded, but then were stripped prior to rendering the page.
[00:20:56] <Krenair>	 either that or they got kept and sent to the browser, which ignores them when displaying the page to the user
[00:22:12] <ratdeptrai1>	 I suppose, but I wouldn't think that HTML inside of Wiki markup would just get blindly forwarded to the browser, would it?
[00:22:17] <Krenair>	 I think in this case the parser stripped them
[00:22:33] <ratdeptrai1>	 Yes, I reckon so.
[00:22:36] <Krenair>	 not any old HTML, no, there's security checks
[00:23:01] <ratdeptrai1>	 Thanks for your help, Krenair, I think I can proceed.
[00:23:07] <Krenair>	 I guess you could say wikitext allows a subset of HTML syntax to be used
[00:23:19] <Krenair>	 btw
[00:23:25] <Krenair>	 you may find this more useful
[00:23:47] <Krenair>	 view-source:https://en.wikipedia.org/api/rest_v1/page/html/.308_Winchester
[00:24:11] <ratdeptrai1>	 Yes, that was my next stop! :-)
[00:25:17] <Krenair>	 this comes from a different parser called parsoid, it's what we rely on in VisualEditor
[00:25:39] <ratdeptrai1>	 Oh, I see.
[00:26:01] <ratdeptrai1>	 I didn't notice the difference in the URL.
[00:26:27] <Krenair>	 api/rest_v1/page/html instead of wiki, right
[00:28:18] <ratdeptrai1>	 Is there no formal documentation for all this stuff though?  If not EBNF than at least a concise but complete description of the syntax of templates, etc.?  The documentation that I've found so far is nice, but a little 'soft'.
[00:29:22] <Krenair>	 there's some old pages on this: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Markup_spec/BNF
[00:31:41] <Krenair>	 ratdeptrai1, https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/A_Spec_For_Wikitext
[00:32:36] <ratdeptrai1>	 Interesting.
[00:33:17] <Krenair>	 I would recommend against attempting to parse wikitext yourself
[00:33:29] <ratdeptrai1>	 That's the first I've seen of that sort of communication.
[00:34:15] <ratdeptrai1>	 Krenair: OK, but could I ask why? I guess you'll say, "complexities, peculiarities, good existing parsers". Yes?
[00:34:34] <Krenair>	 complexities yes
[00:34:37] <Krenair>	 peculiarities yes
[00:34:46] <Krenair>	 good existing parsers - I wouldn't go that far
[00:34:57] <ratdeptrai1>	 Lol!
[00:35:51] <Krenair>	 what parsoid does is great
[00:36:21] <Krenair>	 but 'parsers' with an 's' is plural
[00:36:48] <ratdeptrai1>	 parsoid being written in PHP?
[00:37:29] <Krenair>	 no, JavaScript
[00:37:32] <Krenair>	 using node.js
[00:37:44] <ratdeptrai1>	 Ah, I see.
[00:37:53] <Krenair>	 it runs as a separate web service
[00:38:54] <Krenair>	 https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Parsoid
[00:39:38] <CZauX>	 It does have a performance impact, though. Gotta have enough system resources to run that idle along with everything else.
[00:40:55] <ratdeptrai1>	 Well, let me ask this: aside from this channel, is there any place where these sort of things are discussed, like a mailing-list?
[00:41:32] <Krenair>	 ratdeptrai1, I guess the thing with mediawiki's own parser is that, obviously as the authoritative parser it gets the job done
[00:41:45] <Krenair>	 but it doesn't make me happy
[00:43:21] <Krenair>	 ratdeptrai1, #mediawiki-parsoid is probably a pretty good place to chat about this
[00:43:27] <Krenair>	 though I haven't tried it myself
[00:43:39] <Krenair>	 hopefully the people who frequent that channel are okay with me suggesting this :)
[00:44:13] <Krenair>	 there is also a list somewhere...
[00:44:34] <ratdeptrai1>	 Well, the parser isn't that much of huge interest for me, so much as MediaWiki in general.
[00:44:35] <gwicke>	 https://blog.wikimedia.org/2013/03/04/parsoid-how-wikipedia-catches-up-with-the-web/ has an old overview of the pitfalls of parsing wikitext
[00:44:39] <Krenair>	 here: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitext-l
[00:45:15] <gwicke>	 subbu has another, more detailed talk somewhere
[00:45:33] <ratdeptrai1>	 Ahhh, OK, that's where the mailing-lists are.
[00:45:41] <gwicke>	 tl;dr: the syntax is deeply context sensitive
[00:47:11] <Kalshion>	 Does anyone know if the Extensions "Semantic Forms" and "Page Forms" conflict with one another? I was told they were two different extensions but I can't help but feel that they migh conflict 
[00:47:55] <FoxT>	 Kalshion: SemanticForms was renamed PageForms. No point having both
[00:48:14] <Kalshion>	 So the person helping me with my wiki is wrong, thank you very much FoxT
[00:48:48] <FoxT>	 np\
[01:31:08] <Reedy>	 CZauX: And how many Wordpress sites get exploited due to being poorly setup, to allow for things like one click updating?
[01:45:36] <CZauX>	 Reedy: With using proper tools, less than if the site were to not be updated at all. Exploits are known entry points that are easily bottable.
[01:45:57] <CZauX>	 Bottable exploits are significantly more common than directed attacks
[02:05:16] <p858snake>	 CZauX: The site is up-datable…
[02:05:55] <p858snake>	 updating MW via it's two methods are no real differnce to hitting the update button in wordpress
[02:06:00] <p858snake>	 I do both
[02:07:40] <CZauX>	 It is to users. To devs, we can do whatever, but those inbetween aren't going to keep up with every patch. Site gets setup, generally with some help. packages are updated maybe once a month with a basic cron job.
[02:08:48] <CZauX>	 Its the age old problem of site-rot. You can have the software packages and everything else built to last, but the framework has to be manually updated
[03:13:13] <p858snake>	 CZauX: By the time I log in, take DB snapshots and etc before I run the wordpress updater, it doesn't save me much time
[03:17:21] <CZauX>	 Perspective of knowledge. Most people would have to research, probably enter the wrong commands, and end up with a mess
[03:18:01] <CZauX>	 Most people don't do this kind of stuff day to day, they're researchers, or teachers, or just people who want to make a wiki for something.
[03:28:47] <asdf_>	 hello I need to ask question, someone can help me?
[03:46:40] <Amgine>	 !ask
[03:46:40] <wm-bot>	 Please feel free to ask your question: if anybody who knows the answer is around, they will surely reply. Don't ask for help or for attention before actually asking your question, that's just a waste of time – both yours and everybody else's. :)
[09:56:58] <meldian>	 Good Morning
[09:57:56] <meldian>	 How can i use mediawiki for smart layout and PC layout?
[09:58:17] <meldian>	 Is there a tool for this?
[09:59:13] <gry>	 can you tell me what 'smart layout and PC layout' does in another words
[10:00:32] <meldian>	 Compatible for PC and smartphone
[10:01:01] <meldian>	 That it adapts itself
[10:02:58] <gry>	 you need a mobile-friendly skin
[10:03:27] <gry>	 https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Category:Mobile_skins has several
[10:04:17] <meldian>	 gry is it for PC and for mobile ?
[10:04:40] <gry>	 it is for both
[10:05:08] <gry>	 install it, resize browser window and see. or google screenshots by skin name
[10:06:04] <meldian>	 thank you gry for your help
[10:06:40] <Gengy>	 can i get prem + for reputation points .. thanks
[10:06:55] <gry>	 context?
[10:06:59] <gry>	 you're welcome, meldian
[10:07:50] <Gengy>	 and i wanna get title trader 
[10:10:42] <Gengy>	 i want premium plus from reputation points
[10:14:47] <Gengy>	 i want title trader i got lv7
[11:32:58] <usil>	 hello. i'm trying to migrate my old database to new instalation of media wiki. after I upadate LocalSetings file I run php update.php 
[11:33:41] <usil>	 but then when I'm triying to reach my site I got this error (Can't contact the database server: Unknown error ())
[11:33:51] <usil>	 can you help me
[11:38:40] <slushpuppy>	 usil, check ur php error logs
[11:38:52] <slushpuppy>	 sounds like ur database took the dump
[11:39:25] <usil>	 slushpuppy: where can I do that
[11:39:40] <slushpuppy>	 I am looking for an extension that marks a date, and when that date comes along in the future, it would be displayed in the front page
[11:39:43] <slushpuppy>	 something like https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:LifeMarks
[11:39:52] <slushpuppy>	 or wikipedia's Today's birthdays 
[11:40:26] <slushpuppy>	 usil, depends on your installation, i suspect it would be inside /var/log/php*.log
[11:43:56] <usil>	 slushpuppy: there is no php logs file
[11:52:56] <slushpuppy>	 usil, create a php file, put in <?php phpinfo(); ?>
[11:53:09] <slushpuppy>	 visit the page in ur browser
[11:54:45] <slushpuppy>	 then search for "error_log"
[11:58:14] <usil>	 slushpuppy: thanks
[11:58:28] <slushpuppy>	 u found it?
[12:12:23] <Zer00Cool>	 Hi / Bonjour
[12:12:47] <Zer00Cool>	 I need help to upgrade my mediawiki please / J'ai besoin d'aide pour mettre à jour mon mediawiki
[12:12:57] <Zer00Cool>	 Version 1.26.2 vers 1.27.1
[12:13:50] <Zer00Cool>	 I have a white screen after upload files 1.27.1 / Page blanche après dépôt des paquets 1.27.1
[12:14:23] <jubo2>	 Hello and Big Thank You Thank You Thank You for the awesome SW
[12:14:27] <Zer00Cool>	 mv-config/index.php upggrad DataBase ok
[12:14:42] <Zer00Cool>	 but, white screen.
[12:14:46] <jubo2>	 I gonna be moving an MW today from one Apache served Debian to another Apache served Debian
[12:15:18] <jubo2>	 Should be no probs but if anyone has any good advice or pointers on what to do and what to not do it'd be nice to hear
[12:55:22] <jubo2>	 mmmhhh..
[12:55:29] <jubo2>	 I'm getting a 404 and I don't know why
[12:55:32] <jubo2>	 URL I
[12:55:56] <jubo2>	 URL I am trying to move http://globba12.si/wiki/ is to http://some.wiki.study/on/
[12:56:12] <jubo2>	 Something not correctly set with the Apache I guess
[12:59:07] <jubo2>	 I go look at the relevant log
[13:01:15] <jubo2>	 hmmm... error.log is zero bytes
[13:01:22] <jubo2>	 access.log shows following
[13:01:24] <jubo2>	 178.55.209.76 - - [05/Nov/2016:14:59:19 +0200] "GET /on/ HTTP/1.1" 404 499 "-" "Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Ubuntu; Linux x86_64; rv:49.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/49.0"
[13:01:50] <Zer00Cool>	 Sorry i need help too, it's not easy.
[13:01:52] <jubo2>	 I did adjust that what used to be /wiki/ should now be /on/ but for some reason I'm getting 404 instead of wiki
[13:02:00] <jubo2>	 Zer00Cool: What you need help with?
[13:02:09] <jubo2>	 installation, migration?
[13:02:18] <Zer00Cool>	 i have a wiki 1.62.2 and want upgrade to 1.27.1
[13:02:27] <Zer00Cool>	 1.26.2 *
[13:02:32] <jubo2>	 oh that..
[13:02:44] <jubo2>	 Did you install from tarball or clone into git branch Zer00Cool?
[13:02:50] <Zer00Cool>	 i dont know the good way, i'm french.
[13:02:54] <Zer00Cool>	 tarball for me
[13:03:02] <Zer00Cool>	 the .zip
[13:03:19] <Zer00Cool>	 from official link/download
[13:03:57] <jubo2>	 Oi desolé
[13:04:11] <jubo2>	 So follow the upgrade instructions?
[13:04:25] <Zer00Cool>	 how use it ? take the new file in a new folder "wiki" ?
[13:04:38] <Zer00Cool>	 add localsettings.php ( the 1.26.2 version )
[13:04:48] <Zer00Cool>	 add images and extensions ?
[13:04:51] <jubo2>	 Zer00Cool: I don't recall if you were supposed to write over the dir or make new dir and move relevant files there
[13:04:59] <Zer00Cool>	 then upgrade DataBase ?
[13:05:09] <jubo2>	 I've been using the git version so 'git pull' does it all full automatic for me
[13:05:10] <Zer00Cool>	 then i have whitescreen
[13:05:17] <Gengy>	 any Gm there
[13:05:27] <jubo2>	 Zer00Cool: You prlly need to update the skins and extensions as well
[13:05:29] <jubo2>	 and composer
[13:05:36] <jubo2>	 that fixed the issues for me
[13:05:48] <jubo2>	 Don't ask me what composer is.. is just some dependancy for MW
[13:06:32] <Zer00Cool>	 ok, thank you, i dont use git, a little, but ... i'm not good haha : )
[13:06:39] <Zer00Cool>	 i search the good way.
[13:06:47] <Gengy>	 i wanna title trader .. and change my reputation for prem + .. ty
[13:07:24] <jubo2>	 Zer00Cool: just get the authoritative upgrade instructions and follow those and it will just work
[13:07:41] <jubo2>	 ahh.. I have not prlly enabled .php processing
[13:07:45] <jubo2>	 I go search engine that
[13:13:34] <jubo2>	 Yep.. 
[13:13:57] <Zer00Cool>	 How i can found : $ wgUploadDirectory
[13:14:12] <jubo2>	 Now I no longer get 404 but 403 and for some reason something wants to rewrite the URLs with trailing '/php5-fcgi'
[13:14:26] <jubo2>	 Zer00Cool: You mean how do you make the directory?
[13:14:38] <jubo2>	 'sudo mkdir ...'
[13:14:49] <jubo2>	 or how can you find it?
[13:15:00] <Zer00Cool>	 i see, this folder need to be SAVE and REPLACE
[13:15:33] <Zer00Cool>	 but, i dont know ... for me, it's only a variable : $ ... wgUploadDirectory
[13:15:42] <Zer00Cool>	 and, i search Maintain records of deleted files and any custom envelopes.
[13:15:53] <Zer00Cool>	 This 2 way, i don' anderstand.
[13:16:36] <jubo2>	 I get in error.log
[13:16:38] <jubo2>	 [Sat Nov 05 15:13:30.958983 2016] [authz_core:error] [pid 27465:tid 139646927316736] [client 178.55.209.76:11468] AH01630: client denied by server configuration: /usr/lib/cgi-bin/php5-fcgi
[13:17:21] <jubo2>	 something slightly wrong somewhere.. followed these instructions for enabling fast php: https://www.digitalocean.com/community/questions/apache-2-4-with-php5-fpm
[13:18:10] <jubo2>	 So it would seem the FPM is working for the default server but not correctly for the VirtualHost that supposed to handle http://some.wiki.study/on/
[13:18:26] <jubo2>	 I test with a test .php in the /var/www/html
[13:19:38] <jubo2>	 nope 
[13:20:03] <jubo2>	 that thinks too it is looking for stuff in directory /php5-fcgi/
[13:20:19] <jubo2>	 So something somewhere slightly wrong
[13:20:40] <jubo2>	 I don't much understand this FCGI what where and who is responsible
[13:20:51] <jubo2>	 I'm sorry. We cannot all be the texiest people alive
[13:24:38] <jubo2>	 Here is my /etc/apache2/conf-available/php5-fpm.conf http://paste.debian.net/892696/
[13:24:56] <jubo2>	 I'm tempted to tinker with that
[13:26:11] <jubo2>	 nope.. now I get 500
[13:26:26] <jubo2>	 I'll just change it back and try to figure out this thing after church
[13:28:29] <jubo2>	 yep... something somwhere wants to write '/php5-fcgi' onto every URL 
[13:57:30] <Zer00Cool>	 i can install 1.26.4 ( i have 1.26.2 )
[13:57:51] <Zer00Cool>	 but, thumbtail dont work :/
[13:59:06] <slushpuppy>	 are there any extensions for anniversary-like tracking
[15:02:04] <Gengy>	 exchange my reputation by premium plus
[17:32:14] <usil>	 I'm trying to run media wiki inside docker container but skins doesn't work. What could be problem?
[17:32:35] <Reedy>	 Many things :)
[17:32:40] <usil>	 :D
[17:32:56] <Reedy>	 Can you elaborate on "doesn't work"?
[17:33:01] <usil>	 three of moste posible
[17:33:50] <usil>	 it looks like plain html text
[17:34:18] <Reedy>	 That sounds like the skin isn't loading
[17:37:02] <usil>	 yes
[17:37:05] <usil>	 what can I do
[17:37:56] <Reedy>	 What have you added to your config?
[17:41:19] <usil>	 http://pastebin.com/gBX0xqRT
[17:43:43] <Reedy>	 Have you set $wgDefaultSkin ?
[17:47:38] <Gengy>	 change reputation point to prem +
[17:48:29] <usil>	 Reedy: vector
[17:48:41] <Reedy>	 Any javascript errors appearing?
[17:48:53] <Reedy>	 Do the skins appear in Special:Version?
[17:52:31] <usil>	 Reedy: no. what do you mean with special version
[17:52:38] <Reedy>	 Are they listed on it?
[17:53:10] <Reedy>	 Like they are on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Version
[17:55:49] <usil>	 all skins are installed
[17:56:23] <Reedy>	 append ?useskin=vector to a url?
[17:58:16] <usil>	 Reedy: nothing change
[17:58:36] <Reedy>	 You do have the skins in those folders?
[17:59:23] <usil>	 yes
[17:59:37] <Reedy>	 !debug
[17:59:37] <wm-bot>	 For information on debugging (including viewing errors), see http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:How_to_debug . A list of related configuration variables is at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Configuration_settings#Debug.2Flogging
[17:59:46] <Reedy>	 It's gonna appear in your debugging, or in your JS console
[18:00:58] <usil>	 https://postimg.org/image/pag2v1tkr/
[22:31:31] <Kalshion>	 Ughs, ok I have to ask this since I'm about at the end of my patience. I've read the documentation for templates, for page forms extension, and for a few other sites; but I've been unable to replicate how some sites are doing their templates. I'm basically trying to replicate htis (and I've had no luck exporting them) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Missouri_(BB-63) and http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Setsuna_F._Seiei. I've also tried 
[22:31:31] <Kalshion>	 to go into the page itself and fiddlign around with the format but still haven't had any luck, the templates are still seperated into their own litlte boxes and not combined. 
[22:34:13] <Reedy>	 enwiki doesn't use Page Forms
[22:35:25] <Kalshion>	 I didn't think it does
[22:48:12] <Kalshion>	 Although still wondering hwo that is being accomplished, at least with the Gundam wiki anyway (I'd contact the admins, but it seems they don't answer messages ;-; )
[23:13:32] <Reedy>	 https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Quiz
[23:13:37] <Reedy>	 svn export http://svn.wikimedia.org/svnroot/mediawiki/trunk/extensions/Quiz
[23:13:39] <Reedy>	 lol
[23:17:34] <paladox>	 Reedy https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Extension:Quiz&oldid=2278583
[23:25:33] <arseny92>	 cloning from phabricator is more appropriate tho
[23:25:43] <arseny92>	 for users*
[23:26:33] <arseny92>	 so futureproof the page to not fix it yet again when we deprecate gerrit
[23:27:59] <Reedy>	 templates ftw
[23:29:59] <arseny92>	 so this https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Extension%3AQuiz&type=revision&diff=2278587&oldid=2278585