[11:28:08] is resolving the use of "LoginForm::setLoginToken();" @ https://github.com/wikimedia/mediawiki-extensions-OpenID/blob/master/SpecialOpenIDLogin.body.php#L152 an easy fix or a the-openid-plugin-needs-major-work-now kind of thing? [14:01:31] Technical Advice IRC meeting starting in 60 minutes in channel #wikimedia-tech, hosts: @Lucas_WMDE & @tgr - all questions welcome, more infos: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Technical_Advice_IRC_Meeting [14:51:24] Technical Advice IRC meeting starting in 10 minutes in channel #wikimedia-tech, hosts: @Lucas_WMDE & @tgr - all questions welcome, more infos: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Technical_Advice_IRC_Meeting [15:50:11] Hi, I'm running mediawiki 1.19, and need to get it up to date to at least the current lts.. Do I need to upgrade to each version inbetween 1.19 and 1.3x, or is there a way to go directly to 1.3x with out losing data? [16:44:42] Fratm: update.php applies all migrations in order [16:45:04] make sure to make a full back-up of the file structure and the database before you attempt the upgrade, though [16:45:27] (this applies to every upgrade case anyway, just in case something goes wrong) [16:46:26] Fratm: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Upgrading#How_do_I_upgrade_from_a_really_old_version?_In_one_step,_or_in_several_steps? [16:46:39] If you are upgrading from MediaWiki 1.5 or newer, you can upgrade in one step, from your old version to the latest stable version. [16:46:46] so you should be fine [16:47:15] Awesome, thank you! [16:48:04] Fratm: if you are running an old release of MySQL you really need to upgrade it too [16:48:15] preferably before upgrading MediaWiki itself [16:48:58] you need MySQL 5.5.8+ for current stable versions [16:49:17] Yeah, the pre-reqs are met, so that shouldn't be an issue. [16:49:43] oh [16:49:47] you know what you may want to do [16:50:04] clean up your LocalSettings.php after the upgrade [16:50:50] Yeah, building out a new server with all up to date software, so will be moving the wiki to the new server. Thats when management said I should update the wiki too.. So it should go pretty smooth. The old one wont go down until we know the new one is working. [16:50:54] over the years it got a bit shorter and simpler; and your extensions, if you are using them, may not load properly if you do not fix their calls [16:51:16] the modern way is wfLoadExtension() instead of include_once [16:51:30] some extensions still use the old syntax [16:51:41] refer to their pages, they have stuff like [16:52:16] Fratm: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:TimedMediaHandler#Installation [16:52:19] as an example [16:53:52] Yeah, looking at my LocalSettings it is using include once.. so will clean that up. [16:54:14] (actually require_once, same thing tho I think) [16:56:16] I feel 100% more confident about doing this now :) Cheers! and thanks! [17:35:23] I haven't used IRC in 20 years probably, so please forgive any lapses in etiquette [17:36:21] I see a people icon in the upper right, some names are greyed out some aren't [17:37:00] I believe at least davidwbarratt is in this channel with me having joined a minute after I did [17:37:49] Now, it is curious that David has not spoken, nor have there been any other additions to the channel [17:38:50] Either coincidence David joined at same time, or perhaps David is a bot, or some sort of automation brought his user here when my activity was registered [17:39:59] Clicking on greyed out and non greyed out names yields the same results giving no clear distinction between the two [17:41:23] Now I believe I've turned on notifications if there is activity in this channel, likely people wondering who I am and why I'm here [17:41:34] michael___: If you want to talk about IRC, maybe there's a better channel for this conversation (more on-topic) than #mediawiki [17:41:38] Questions, arguably, we all have about our lives [17:42:14] Perfect! Much more interested in mediawiki. That was my odd way of getting someone's attention [17:42:51] I'm very interested in the idea of storing knowledge and making it available to others [17:43:36] In a very practical sense I work in corporate America and I'm seeing a troublesome trend. Baby boomers are retiring, millennials now outnumber them in the workforce. [17:44:03] Businesses took for granted that "Bob" would always be there to handle xyz problem [17:44:39] And for years Bob was there. The business grew complacent. Problem is Bob didn't write down half the things he handled for the business [17:45:14] Now, arguably, a new person can likely figure out most of it given enough time. [17:45:39] Problem is millennials are jumping from job to job much quicker than boomers did [17:46:12] The boomers had a pact with the company. Work hard, stay for a long time, company would take care of you [17:47:19] Millennials know that's dead and gone, and so they gain skills at a job and jump to something new when their current company has nothing to offer in terms of developing them, and/ or the millennial wants a raise [17:48:10] Problem is, even though millennials have the skills, the tribal knowledge, the context of what's been learned, tried in the past, all that is walking out the door as boomers retire [17:49:15] Ideally corporate America needs to embrace a system where they can get people to willingly document their business knowledge, turning it from tribal knowledge to institutional knowledge [17:49:52] (Hard because the worker believes it makes him/ her more replaceable, and they're not wrong) [17:50:18] Once the knowledge is entered into this system though the true work starts [17:50:55] People need to not only reference this system but also add new knowledge to it and update existing entries [17:51:55] There is likely even a point where new hires will need to be taught how to learn/ participate in this knowledge community as they grow in the company, as systems like this that actually work well seem exceedingly rare [17:53:14] All that being said, I find myself circling between Ontology, Semantic Reference something... and now I dove into learning more about wikipedia after deciding to donate, which has led me here [17:54:16] I truly believe that the problems in our world right now and the problems of the years to come center around the lack of common knowledge frameworks that people can acknowledge/ agree to [17:55:08] Which is why I'm trying to figure out how to get involved in the general effort of making knowledge storage more available to everyone in the world [17:55:16] ... any thoughts? [18:29:29] that's a wall of text [18:30:05] Fair [18:30:14] reading [18:30:20] Thank you [18:31:31] I think what you mentioned is a problem no one has been able to solve [18:32:05] ... that's what I keep hearing... and fearing is the truth [18:33:27] For businesses certain knowledge stays relevant for only short periods of time, once you gather masses of information (written text is not knowledge by the way) it is impossible to keep it up to date. Finding it is rather hard in these company wikis etc [18:33:31] many2many [18:34:18] Agreed, and I likely lack the right vocabulary for exactly what I'm trying to get at [18:34:46] just semantics :P [18:34:46] But I can tell my meaning is coming across, and for that I'm grateful for you taking the time to read [18:36:01] regarding this collective knowledge, I find that many companies are beginning to use chats (like IRC) for their benefit. When they form communities around certain topics, the participants actually have a chance to get timely and valid knowledge from there [18:37:18] This can work, it's true. Slack and now Teams are good examples. But in a practical sense there's not enough being recorded, and once the boomers are retired there's going to be a correction period that is very painful [18:38:20] For example, my company still uses a piece of software made in 1984 for a major part of its operations. The manual for it is still referenced and relevant, as they literally don't make documentation like they used to [18:39:27] things change much faster, keeping documentation up to date should probably be a full time job (but usually isn't) [18:39:50] There seems to be fundamental assumptions being made that things just "work", with few realizing what is actually underpinning their entire business, the pain in moving to modern architecture, and the need to not repeat these mistakes again [18:40:08] Agreed. I'm pushing for a historian role to be created at my company [18:40:21] As crazy as that sounds... they're actually looking into it [18:41:53] I don't believe we'll ever achieve perfection/ nirvana in this endeavor, but from my perspective most organizations aren't even trying [18:42:17] 99,99% aren't even thinking of trying [18:42:40] my 2p has for a long time been to make web presence/content/recommendations modular. many identity servers (openid), many services that can vouch for a user identity that is real-life or not or backed by a real life id (with metamoderation), many services that can host content, many services that can host a tag/review/valence of a piece of content. by the time that relational aspect is in-place, full on federated content formats [18:42:40] will be the norm anyway, scaling from shitposting to government. [18:42:53] Is the best solution we have right now a combination of wiki technology, building a culture of contributing knowledge, and reinforcing that as time goes on? [18:43:42] http://web.archive.org/web/20060203020423/http://many.corante.com/ [18:44:11] I'm not sure I follow milkii sorry [18:44:38] milkii: well in tech world initiatives/services like readthedocs are really having some impact (even if tiny) on the attention to documentation [18:45:02] Interesting [18:45:30] that wasn't meant for milkii, sorry [18:46:41] I'll give a hopefully interesting story along those lines: I shared a data dictionary for the 1984 database with a colleague. He asked where I got it, that he'd been looking for it for over a decade. [18:47:01] I told him: we made it when we couldn't find it. [18:47:15] :) [18:47:43] Did something exist originally? Most likely. But it's been lost to the ages, just as much as any ancient text or fossil [18:47:50] regarding institutional memory, i think it's more regarding on-boarding to a culture of living documentation as well as facilitating and curating. regarding the synthesis of both issues, if the smallest federated wiki was somehow fediverse enabled.. [18:48:41] milkii: what is fediverse? [18:49:03] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fediverse [18:50:29] OStatus meets ActivityPub. there's some content systems like MediaGoblin and PeerTube. [18:51:16] culture is hard to build though as people come and go, perhaps that's something the babyboomers (as michael___ mentioned) had - more stability in the people [18:52:08] https://fediverse.party/ [18:52:40] Very interesting [18:54:01] This problem... it's not just business. Not trying to get political but we're in an area where science/ knowledge/ education is being denigrated, and alternative facts are being entertained as reality [18:55:50] I want to find a way to actively engage people to build knowledge communities that, by their nature, encourage evidence based approaches to beliefs [18:55:58] then the veracity of the reporting/reposting 'node' needs to be confirmed by another 'node', which is the start of my 2p shtick [18:56:06] yeah that is due to saving so much information ;) there are too many facts to choose from [18:56:10] decoupled [18:57:32] see also metamoderation on slashdot and kuro5hin [18:58:46] Is ontology the wrong direction to explore here? [18:59:38] I've been told it's overkill for this problem, but as this problem hasn't been solved and half measures aren't cutting it anymore, we need to figure something out [19:00:00] that's where I would start [19:00:25] Thanks [19:00:30] You all have been awesome [19:00:43] try to find scientific literature [19:00:53] that would be a good starting point, as these things have been researched [19:00:56] I really appreciate you guys taking the time to engage in this conversation [19:01:25] https://scholar.google.com https://www.scopus.com etc. access to most journals is pretty hard, but at least you can read abstracts [19:01:43] michael___: it is an interesting topic, thanks for bringing it up [19:02:19] Is it inappropriate for me to share my email here? [19:02:40] for what purpose? [19:02:48] And aside from this research endeavor, do you think I should explore Wikimedia more? [19:02:54] I don't think it is, do it on your own risk [19:03:24] Fair point, more conceited of me in case anyone wanted to reach out after [19:03:28] I don't know, get whatever information that is accesible :) [19:03:46] Makes sense [19:03:48] Gotta run [19:03:54] cya [19:03:54] https://wiki.thingsandstuff.org/Open_social plus there's related links on other pages [19:04:00] ta n take care