[03:43:10] 10Scoring-platform-team, 10ORES: Rename wp10 ORES model - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T196240 (10kaldari) Now that we have aliases, any chance we could implement an "articlequality" alias for wp10, hopefully before it is baked into the [[ https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:JADE | JADE extension ]].... [03:43:11] 10[2] 04https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:JADE [03:51:17] 10Scoring-platform-team, 10ORES: Rename wp10 ORES model - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T196240 (10awight) FWIW, we've named the repository which generates this model "articlequality", so that name is already being baked into our code. I agree with @kaldari that we should make "articlequality" the canonic... [03:56:31] harej: I just read through T61837, thanks for the educational link! [03:56:32] T61837: Remove Participation: and Programs: namespaces from metawiki - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T61837 [03:56:44] that was a fun internship [03:56:51] "let's nuke thousands of pages and drop two namespaces" [03:58:15] /o\ [03:58:23] I have a question about > The biggest difference is that "talk pages" would not be talk pages, but in theory these are all redirects anyway. [03:58:41] (not that we would be doing this for JADE, ever, but...) [03:59:24] Was [[Programs_talk:X]] moved to [[Talk:Programs:X]] and a redirect created from [[Main:Programs_talk:X]? [03:59:25] 10[3] 04https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Programs_talk:X13 => [03:59:28] 10[4] 04https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Programs:X13 => [03:59:31] 10[5] 04https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main:Programs_talk:X [03:59:40] AsimovBot: self-destruct in 10 seconds [04:02:45] I think I didn't bother with "programs talk" redirects [04:02:52] I don't remember [04:03:01] But I was very conscientious with trying to prevent link breakage [04:03:39] Namespace destruction is very messy, as you see. (In retrospect, I had no idea how useful my post-mortem was going to be!) [04:06:18] These were two namespaces that had effectively been decommissioned years ago [04:06:50] And just then, in 2017, was I getting around to finishing them off. After all the pages involved had become redirects [04:06:56] In some cases, having been redirects for years [04:10:35] I guess this doesn't parallel well with JADE because in the case of "Jexit," we would be "destroying" the content outright after dumping it. So we wouldn't have to worry about link preservation in any case. [04:11:11] But this says nothing of the edge case where you try to read deleted content in a deleted namespace. [04:11:22] I suppose such content is consigned to the hypervoid. [04:16:17] What about this workflow: pages are renamed from "X" in namespace "Judgment" to "Judgment:X" in the main namespace; the namespace is dropped; the pages are deleted [04:16:54] Or, if we want to keep the content, we move to "Project:JADE Archive/X" and don't delete them [04:19:34] Considering the success of ORES in taking community issues seriously and only deploying to wikis which invite us, I have a hard time going through this disaster scenario where we get thrown off-wiki and pages deleted, btw. [04:20:55] Also, I’d expect the read-only stage to last years. [04:22:31] +1 that we might as well keep the pages alive as Main:Judgment:X [04:24:40] Clearly there is a lot of optimism for JADE if people are afraid it's going to be so successful it brings down the site [04:26:11] right? I like planning for disastrous success followed by a swift reaction that causes us to be banned from wikis. It makes a lot of sense ;-) [10:26:14] (03CR) 10Ladsgroup: [V: 032 C: 032] "Deploying to beta" [services/ores/deploy] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/454283 (owner: 10Ladsgroup) [11:30:31] o/ [11:42:23] ores with git lfs is deployed on beta and it works just fine [11:42:30] I confirm it's using the lfs version [13:01:03] 10Scoring-platform-team, 10Cloud-Services, 10Cloud-VPS, 10ORES: Keep wmflabs scoring boxes up-to-date - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T168478 (10Ladsgroup) https://github.com/wikimedia/wikilabels-wmflabs-deploy/pull/49 [13:03:11] This wikilabels stuff was quite interesting [14:02:22] Technical Advice IRC meeting starting in 60 minutes in channel #wikimedia-tech, hosts: @CFisch_WMDE & @amir1 - all questions welcome, more infos: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Technical_Advice_IRC_Meeting [14:36:16] Amir1: quick Q before I go back to sleep :-) [14:36:20] Are you planning to do SoS today, or should I? [14:36:36] awight: I do! [14:36:56] <3 right on [14:52:13] Technical Advice IRC meeting starting in 10 minutes in channel #wikimedia-tech, hosts: @CFisch_WMDE & @amir1 - all questions welcome, more infos: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Technical_Advice_IRC_Meeting [14:53:47] see you shortly o/ [15:46:39] SoS is done [16:02:59] ping! [16:03:12] hello? [16:04:35] harej: halfak [16:04:41] hello! [16:05:13] i'm in the video call. or *a* video call [16:23:18] 10Scoring-platform-team (Current), 10Goal: Bootstrap the Wikimedia AI community - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T197979 (10Harej) [16:24:41] 10Scoring-platform-team, 10Analytics, 10ORES, 10Services (designing): ORES hook integration with EventBus - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T201869 (10awight) [16:27:38] 10Scoring-platform-team (Current), 10ORES, 10Performance-Team (Radar), 10Wikimedia-log-errors: ORES Storage::SqlScoreStorage exception every 2-3 minutes: Model contains an error for [id]: TimeoutError - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T201412 (10awight) [17:08:51] 10Scoring-platform-team (Current), 10DBA, 10JADE, 10Operations, 10TechCom-RFC: Introduce a new namespace for collaborative judgments about wiki entities - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T200297 (10awight) [17:10:22] 10Scoring-platform-team (Current), 10DBA, 10JADE, 10Operations, 10TechCom-RFC: Introduce a new namespace for collaborative judgments about wiki entities - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T200297 (10Harej) [17:36:28] back now from lunch [17:36:35] sorry I missed the BS meeting [17:36:54] I would have been a grumpy participant otherwise : [17:36:56] :P [17:42:46] awight: Review please :D https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/c/mediawiki/vagrant/+/454580 [17:43:39] and https://github.com/wikimedia/wikilabels-wmflabs-deploy/pull/49 and https://github.com/wikimedia/ores/pull/258 [17:43:55] will do! we’re still BS’ing tho [17:46:25] and another one: https://github.com/wikimedia/editquality/pull/170 [18:19:11] 10Scoring-platform-team, 10Cloud-Services, 10ORES, 10Patch-For-Review: Keep wmflabs scoring boxes up-to-date - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T168478 (10Ladsgroup) ores nodes are read-only while wikilabels nodes are read/write and contain sensitive information (database credentials, OAuth credentials).... [18:42:57] 10Scoring-platform-team, 10ORES, 10RESTBase, 10RESTBase-API, 10Services (later): Use RESTBase for ORES precaching - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T166161 (10Pchelolo) 05Open>03Resolved Been done a long. time ago [18:47:02] It looks like my client is logging in first, trying to join, then using my registered nick, so I get banned [18:47:29] ahhhh [18:47:42] you should enable SASL [18:47:45] if you don't already [18:47:58] (I think IRCCloud handles SASL transparently?) [18:48:47] 906: SASL authentication aborted [18:48:50] iinteresting [18:49:09] hmm [18:49:09] CAP REQ sasl multi-prefix [18:49:17] CAP * ACK sasl multi-prefix [18:49:18] etc. [18:52:22] 10Scoring-platform-team (Current), 10DBA, 10JADE, 10Operations, 10TechCom-RFC: Introduce a new namespace for collaborative judgments about wiki entities - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T200297 (10daniel) I'd like to comment on something that @mark said three weeks ago: > As I understand it, several a... [19:07:26] 10Scoring-platform-team (Current), 10DBA, 10JADE, 10Operations, 10TechCom-RFC: Introduce a new namespace for collaborative judgments about wiki entities - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T200297 (10daniel) Another thing: it's unclear to me how judgments are going to be used. Is it enough to be able to... [19:09:29] 10Scoring-platform-team (Current), 10DBA, 10JADE, 10Operations, 10TechCom-RFC: Introduce a new namespace for collaborative judgments about wiki entities - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T200297 (10Ladsgroup) >>! In T200297#4524312, @daniel wrote: > //However//, this does not at all address the primary... [19:10:33] 10Scoring-platform-team (Current), 10DBA, 10JADE, 10Operations, 10TechCom-RFC: Introduce a new namespace for collaborative judgments about wiki entities - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T200297 (10Ladsgroup) oh I forgot to mention that custom tables need to be built anyway as raw storage are not query... [19:11:25] me rubs hands vigorously [19:23:05] 10Scoring-platform-team (Current), 10DBA, 10JADE, 10Operations, 10TechCom-RFC: Introduce a new namespace for collaborative judgments about wiki entities - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T200297 (10awight) >>! In T200297#4524386, @Ladsgroup wrote: > oh I forgot to mention that custom tables need to be... [19:37:48] 10Scoring-platform-team (Current), 10DBA, 10JADE, 10Operations, 10TechCom-RFC: Introduce a new namespace for collaborative judgments about wiki entities - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T200297 (10daniel) > For the initial release, we aren't building any of this machinery however, we'll simply provide... [19:45:06] 10Scoring-platform-team, 10articlequality-modeling, 10artificial-intelligence: articeqaulity scores a very short article really high in Persian Wikipedia - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T202573 (10Ladsgroup) [19:50:50] 10Scoring-platform-team (Current), 10DBA, 10JADE, 10Operations, 10TechCom-RFC: Introduce a new namespace for collaborative judgments about wiki entities - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T200297 (10awight) >>! In T200297#4524436, @daniel wrote: >> For the initial release, we aren't building any of this... [19:52:14] It's... regrettable that everyone keeps starting conversations by saying "without a plan for X". [19:52:37] I guess I misjudged how much of this system needs to be made explicit ahead of time. [19:53:25] For example, our plan to use Kafka to recreate full histories seems straightforward but now I'm concerned that I need to spell the whole thing out in order to have credibility. [20:07:43] RFC discussions happen in #wikimedia-office, right? [20:10:43] yep [20:13:30] Meh I'll stop complaining, this is useful to have the questions asked. [20:13:43] I see something annoying about the link table I proposed... [20:16:57] 10Scoring-platform-team (Current), 10DBA, 10JADE, 10Operations, 10TechCom-RFC: Introduce a new namespace for collaborative judgments about wiki entities - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T200297 (10awight) I should also say, this is the type of (greatly simplified) query I expect once we're ready to in... [20:22:29] awight: anything you would add to these user test research questions? https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/jade_testing [20:29:05] thanks! [20:34:32] Structured Discussions is a good example of the hide/delete ambiguity problem. You can "hide" a comment but I am not sure if that's equivalent to editing the page and taking it out or equivalent to full-on deletion which is usually overkill [20:37:05] oho yeah they are in a corner, cos using custom tables. [20:37:23] For us, I think the challenge is more to make the semantics clear in the UI. [20:37:46] the backend will do what's expected, but the frontend needs to signal this to users [20:39:30] Yes [20:39:59] So we need to make clear whether the button erases the content normally or if it's full on deletion [20:40:16] I think that you need special privs to really delete, anyway [20:40:27] Also, can JADE data be used to train ORES if JADE is presented alongside ORES? [20:40:31] Don't we risk an overfit problem, or something? [20:40:56] The LFS is deployed [20:41:36] harej: That totally is a problem. In wikilabels for example, we'll strictly never show prior judgments. [20:42:18] & we need to keep track of provenance in order to know the context the user was seeing. I don't have a good answer for that other than, maybe changetags. [20:42:52] But as long as we know that a particular item came from auditing and the user was probably aware of existing scores or judgments, I think we're fine. [20:43:13] Also, AIUI it should fair to use that data to train ORES. [20:44:21] For the most part, we expect that JADE will be used to contradict ORES anyway, so it would be a non-reinforcing feedback loop. [20:45:20] 10Scoring-platform-team (Current), 10User-Ladsgroup: [Epic] Use LFS for large ORES files - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T197096 (10Ladsgroup) I put this back to active because I want to turn wheels to git lfs as well, since it's growing really quickly and it's already 220MB since it's binary files and git... [20:50:29] <3 This needs love: https://github.com/wikimedia/ores/pull/258 [20:56:13] replied :-) [21:22:46] (03CR) 10jenkins-bot: Localisation updates from https://translatewiki.net. [extensions/JADE] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/454668 (owner: 10L10n-bot) [22:06:19] i love it, the RFC meeting has given way to a post-meeting meeting [22:07:17] and knife-sharpening ;-) [22:07:43] and stroopwaffels [22:08:32] I wish. There isn't a cookie or anything like it in the house. Need to replenish soul somehow. [22:10:08] awight: anything post-meeting you want to discuss, or is there nothing really to discuss? [22:10:13] The MCR suggestion is weird, it seems like obviously bad design to have multiple backends for some marginal benefit. [22:10:32] IMO it's just a fad, but I didn't want to flamewar about that. [22:10:40] awight: I'll replenish my energy going to bed :) [22:10:49] good night && thanks for your awesome work [22:11:30] Hauskatze: Thanks for being involved! [22:13:13] harej: I'd be fine with discussion or not ;-) [22:13:34] I do think there's followup to do, but no reason to do that now! [22:13:42] Sure, let's take some time to process [22:14:01] I'll need to write up some thoughts about the "sorta MCR" suggestion, it seems. [22:15:02] My only thought so far is that it complicates client logic and requires an extra round-trip to determine page title and slot, but that could be hidden by an appropriate API. [22:16:16] There was def. some stuff I missed in that melee, too. [23:17:23] 10Scoring-platform-team (Current), 10DBA, 10JADE, 10Operations, 10TechCom-RFC: Introduce a new namespace for collaborative judgments about wiki entities - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T200297 (10kchapman) TechCom hosted a meeting on this today: Minutes: https://tools.wmflabs.org/meetbot/wikimedia-o...