[00:03:11] dschoon: i don't follow. would love to see some of those discussions [00:03:45] totally. next time it comes up i'll urge people to take it to the list [00:03:48] it's not like there's substatial special sauce in the grok.se data. WMF is the upstream source. you could generate it internally [00:05:22] of course. [00:05:33] the concern was over pulling in content from an untrusted source [00:05:51] my comment was mostly that this is another reason to generate the data internally [00:06:45] ok [00:06:57] anyway, the point is not to display on a page like that [00:07:16] the point is to enable something like grok.se to give a better product to its users [00:11:23] totally [00:11:33] but, there are many potential users! [00:11:39] and we are interested in all of them [00:12:27] how does one get a mingle account? [00:12:45] that is an excellent question [00:12:46] and how does one destroy mingle and move you all to some free software? [00:12:49] i have no idea [00:12:52] i knowwww [00:12:57] some day [00:14:40] i would create you an account immediately, but i worry we have a seat limit or something stupid [00:18:04] i also worry [00:18:07] but who would know? [00:18:08] chip? [00:18:17] i'll just ask kraig on monday [00:18:43] probably chip, but he has enough to do [00:19:20] * YuviPanda mumbles something about a wiki page and bugzilla and then runs away [00:19:22] actually, speaking of chip... who sets up the meeting hangouts? [00:19:30] for e.g. lunch [00:19:36] for events? [00:19:40] or for ... fun? [00:19:40] yes [00:19:45] no :) [00:19:51] usually chip [00:20:38] hrmmm. i guess i should just mail techsupport@ [00:21:00] * jeremyb_ wants a copy of whatever instructions they have documented for setting one up [00:21:13] yeah [00:34:58] ewwwww, it has it's own wiki in mingle?? :( [00:41:46] i knoww! it's like [00:42:05] mediawiki might not be perfect, but a shitty tack-on for mingle cannot POSSIBLY be better [00:51:32] well also you're all pretty much guaranteed to already know mediawiki [00:51:35] :) [00:52:39] tradeoffs between a wiki and a tool to manage features/bugs geared towards scrum [00:52:55] mingle is somewhere in between [00:53:33] ok, but why not just ignore the wiki parts? :-) [00:53:46] heh [00:54:20] hard to say [00:54:43] we try [00:54:50] the wiki parts are integrate into the goddamn tickets [00:54:51] (cards) [00:54:58] so you have to at least write textile [00:55:09] personally, i prefer markdown to mw syntax [00:55:13] but that's immaterial [00:55:22] the card and organization features *are* useful [00:55:33] i just wish the thing was a little more focused, and a lot more open [00:55:46] it's just not *good* enough to be closed source [00:56:36] dschoon: mingle you mean ? :) [00:56:41] yes. [00:56:51] i think we should probably explore trello [00:56:54] at least it's open [00:57:21] yeah, actually I bet we could make a mediawiki plugin for scrum but.. time.. [00:57:26] of course. [00:57:32] at my last place, we used trac [00:57:35] i liked trac [00:57:41] and we wrote a kanban plugin for trac [00:57:44] it was pretty excellent [00:57:55] https://github.com/clearspring/tracboard [00:58:19] oh cool [00:59:50] i like trac. [00:59:56] vastly superior to bugzilla [01:00:03] and it's intended to be hackable (python) [01:00:15] since the premise is that no tool is perfect for everybody [01:00:20] so let's make a tool that's easy to customize [01:00:27] http://trac.edgewall.org/ [01:00:30] bugzilla is Perl [01:00:33] hah [01:00:50] hah, mediawiki plugin for scrum [01:01:11] what do you mean trello's open? [01:01:22] isn't it? [01:01:25] am i wrong about that? [01:01:30] (i admit i haven't looked myself) [01:01:42] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trello ? [01:02:04] but i thought those were the noises i heard before [01:02:14] oh. merely gree [01:02:15] •free [01:03:18] s/free/gratis/ :) [01:04:23] indeed. [01:04:30] "costs nothing" [01:04:57] it's a pretty good app though [01:05:21] i'm not quite as hung up on the oss thing as other people [01:05:29] i feel our job is to make the movement strong [01:05:34] and we do that with good tools. [01:05:42] i liked asana a ton [01:05:49] i'd love to see a kanban app for asana [01:07:17] i'm not saying never use anything closed. obviously a lot of you use macs [01:07:27] <-- [01:07:47] trello seems like it might be worth the tradeoff [01:07:51] that's what bothers me, usually [01:07:59] that people don't think about the tradeoff [01:08:18] there is a knee-jerk reaction in favor of open source, even when it sucks [01:08:50] i am definitely saying reliance on closed source network services (especially when you make other people use them not just the people that feel like using them) is bad. and not something to immediately get rid of overnight. but at least not something that we should live with staying as is for 3 years [01:09:19] i don't think marktraceur's ever touched mingle at all [01:09:23] heh [01:09:30] it's a hard line to walk [01:09:31] and i don't want to [01:09:35] our email is google apps, is it not? [01:09:44] that's an option not a requirement [01:09:46] we use gdocs, most of us work on macs [01:09:49] surely [01:09:57] gdocs, and gcal are more required [01:10:01] i just often think that we need to better know our goals [01:10:04] gmail is AIUI optional [01:10:06] is it to be pure? [01:10:17] Richard Stallman is on a particular side of the spectrum [01:10:20] or is it to win battles for the free and open internet? [01:10:27] he doesn't use commercial software at all [01:10:30] yes. and i am basically on the opposite. [01:10:33] he says it's evil [01:10:35] and bad [01:10:35] i think we are here to win. [01:10:46] and everything else is noise that will ultimately be forgotten. [01:10:52] so, i think things like email where people can make their own personal choices are one thing. and some people will decide one way and some the other [01:10:56] history is written by the winners, not the pure of heart. [01:11:08] dschoon: hahahaha [01:11:10] nice [01:11:55] but for a shared service like mingle where it's not possible to have half of everyone using a closed system and half using an open system then it should be a goal to not use non-free [01:12:37] i think we host it [01:12:43] so i suspect the data isn't locked [01:12:43] we do [01:12:47] and there isn't a seat limit [01:12:48] but still [01:12:49] probably [01:12:52] i agree, i don't trust it [01:13:04] oh, really? i thought we weren't sure about seat limit [01:13:15] sorry [01:13:17] bad line break [01:13:22] i *suspect* there isn't [01:13:30] ahh [01:13:39] I don't trust Ubuntu's kernel either. Like who knows what malicious monitoring code is running on my machine [01:13:47] but why worry ? [01:13:48] hah [01:13:59] average_drifter: petan will compile a custom kernel for you! [01:14:11] jeremyb_: just for me? awwww how nice [01:14:13] hehe [01:14:17] yes [01:14:20] (see labs-l) [01:14:20] anyway [01:14:31] i think it's an interesting discussion [01:14:36] because i think we're all the faithful [01:14:40] anyway, we definitely can't release our improvements to the mingle codebase. and we can't fix bugs that are hurting us (if they come up) [01:14:44] the fact that we fight over such things seems silly [01:14:47] it surely hurts us [01:15:01] just like how i think that using crappy tools hurts us [01:15:56] (if the available decent options right now aren't free then we can move to trello. but we should still plan/aim to not always be on trello) [01:16:29] yeah [01:16:35] anyway, did some googling a few mins ago. haven't evaluated any of them yet [01:16:35] data export is important, for example [01:17:40] https://code.google.com/p/kanbanik/ http://www.icescrum.org/ http://simple-kanban.com/ [01:17:54] indeed [01:17:58] there are always lots of options [01:18:03] all of those are free. but 3 projects are 3 different licenses! [01:18:06] i thought tracboard was perfectly good [01:18:22] does it work ok if not using the rest of trac? [01:18:31] https://github.com/clearspring/tracboard [01:18:43] i mean, the things your organize are tickets [01:20:09] oh, hrmm [01:20:17] but wiki and source control [01:20:18] ? [01:20:25] optional. [01:20:34] at its core, it's a ticket system [01:20:36] like bugzilla [01:21:06] i think it's one of the better ones [01:21:22] trac you mean? [01:21:25] as all of them seem to have their own drawbacks, but only trac has been easy for me to hack on [01:21:26] yeah. [01:21:36] tracboard, honestly, isn't nearly as polished as trello [01:21:46] i've used it a little but not thoroughly. never liked it so much [01:22:01] i don't think any of them inspire devotion [01:22:07] but i do think several inspire revulsion [01:22:10] (buzilla) [01:22:15] (christ i hate bugzilla) [01:22:37] huh, really [01:22:47] * jeremyb_ doesn't hate it. usually [01:23:41] i admit i have some special, non-engineer biases [01:23:44] i hate ugly things [01:23:59] it is hard for me to imagine why anyone would want to bring something ugly into the world [01:24:52] there's little point to life aside from beauty. only it seems to really be resident in the world. even physicists will, after a drink or so, admit that "parsimony" is really just "elegance", which is really just beauty. [01:24:56] all things kneel to beauty. [01:25:50] average_drifter: back in scrollback, you're wrong. richard stallman uses plenty of proprietary software [01:26:14] he doesn't only go to free software ATMs [01:27:01] hehe [01:27:06] i made that argument in the office last ngiht [01:27:25] "you know, we drive cars. we use lights. they're unfree, but they're tools." [01:28:00] this gestures wildly toward a place where i *am* rather furiously strident about the use of free software [01:28:17] which? [01:28:21] i think it's completely unjustified that any government uses proprietary software for any non-military purpose [01:28:52] (i only bracket out the military because is a whole different conversation) [01:29:31] but like, yes. our fucking city governments should use open office [01:29:42] they should build their silly database tools on sqlite, not MS Access [01:29:50] and it should all be released as open source [01:29:53] dschoon: actually, over here in Europe, in a city called Munchen, the government decided to use LibreOffice instead of MS Office and switch all their machines to Linux [01:30:02] yeah, it happens [01:30:12] but it's not a requirement everywhere in the statses [01:30:14] *states [01:30:16] it should be. [01:30:32] at the federal level, at least, all development must be released as open-source [01:30:37] but it doesn't have to be done in the open yet [01:30:40] (which is dumb) [01:32:03] I think we're .. far from that happening [01:32:13] maybe. [01:32:22] there are quite a few people here in SF pushing that [01:32:32] Tim O'Reilly's "gov 2.0" push, for example [01:32:45] to get everybody to release their data, publish services (not reports), etc [01:33:03] to remake local government patterned on the software community [01:33:07] an interesting idea [01:33:26] http://radar.oreilly.com/gov2 [01:33:30] :) [01:33:46] i do like tim [01:35:40] dschoon: http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/08/bundestag/ [01:35:50] cool [01:35:52] i'll check it out [01:35:52] german federal law is on github :) [01:36:02] ah-hahah [01:36:05] what a great image [01:36:09] :)))))) [03:08:42] I'm preparing for r46 [15:02:41] moinmoin [15:03:45] dschoon: federal level all development has to be released as open source? [15:03:48] how do you figure?