[14:20:14] Hello everyone [14:20:19] I got a concern [14:20:43] It seems students get into GCI without knowing the technologies the organisations uses? [14:20:54] yes. [14:21:12] and knowing the technologies might not even be required for some tasks. [14:21:30] d3r1ck: what's the actual concern that you have? [14:21:44] Wikimedia has a profile on the GCI site. People can read that (or not). [14:23:29] andre__: Yeah, was just discussing with a student on #mediawiki and they student says he/she knows only Java [14:23:55] That keeps me wondering if the student knows the technologies used in the Wikimedia Foundation [14:24:19] d3r1ck: why don't you ask the student? [14:24:28] d3r1ck, but still: how is this relevant? [14:24:44] Maybe I also know Java. No why should or should not I work on Wikimedia stuff? :) [14:24:59] What's your *actual* underlying concern? [14:25:03] andre__: Don't get me wrong [14:25:16] You know Java, yes [14:25:28] But its different from you know *only* Java :) [14:25:30] I can't get you wrong as long as I don't understand what you're saying :D [14:25:35] You might know Java and PHP etc... [14:25:42] what's your point? [14:26:23] Ok, my point is if there is a way to let these students know the technologies used in the org before getting into GCI [14:26:42] It will help. [14:26:50] Wikimedia Profile will help [14:27:01] Like you said but I think there should be a better way [14:27:11] d3r1ck, I don't see how it will help [14:27:28] GCI is not like GSoC for example where there is community bonding :) [14:27:28] We describe the org here: https://codein.withgoogle.com/organizations/wikimedia/ [14:27:38] d3r1ck, please describe how will it help? [14:27:58] Tasks have tags. Tags can be programming languages. Problem solved. :) [14:28:19] The sidebar on that URL shows "Programming Languages & Technologies". [14:28:30] Which only allows five. Which annoys me. Because we do have many Java tasks. [14:28:39] Yes [14:29:04] Also, I see that students of last year have an upper hand than new students. Do you agree with me? [14:29:31] I think its because they have had some experience with GCI and Wikimedia so they prep up themselves in the technologies [14:29:41] what does "have an upper hand" mean? [14:29:47] ah [14:29:56] I don't know yet. Maybe, but too early to judge for me [14:30:07] andre__: I am not judging [14:30:12] We are not :) [14:30:35] I think it goes way beyong GCI [14:30:44] d3r1ck, I still don't see the issue of a student only knowing Java working on Wikimedia GCI tasks, but anyway.... :) [14:30:59] The more you are familiar with a particular community, they more you know about them and anyone new will have to go throught same process to be like you :) [14:31:31] andre__: its not a student knowing only Java (the student can learn and work on Wikimedia tasks) [14:32:03] All I was trying to say is students should know before hand what they are going to use as tools in Wikimedia. Remember they are children :) [14:32:14] Ah :) [14:32:20] You learn along the way. [14:32:30] I don't know if you always need to know beforehand :) [14:32:49] They might be negleting the fact that they need those tools. (kids are kids). [14:33:17] andre__: yes, you need to know before hand [14:33:19] Returning students do better at GCI. We should be working with that fact, not against it. We should encourage 15yo to start, do a few tasks, try to keep up, maybe be a finalist, and then come the next two years to perfect the skills and efficiencu [14:33:30] Thats what I call pre-requisites [14:33:48] I agree with that. [14:33:57] Also kids who have holidays during GCI do better than kids who have exams for the first two weeks [14:34:01] We've seen some awesome students over the last years. [14:34:16] jayvdb: Yeah, thats correct. [14:34:33] So its all a matter of time (useful time) spent on the code base. [14:34:36] we cant change this ... we can only help them learn [14:34:54] With things like exam, etc... it slows this process down. [14:34:57] The only thing we can do is write better tasks [14:35:22] jayvdb: Not just helping them learn you know. Helping them learn as fast as possible. [14:35:38] There is very little time, they need to solve many tasks as possible etc... [14:35:49] year 11 and 12 exams are more important that GCI - I have many parents here in Indonesia refusing to let their very bright student participate in GCI [14:35:51] andre__: where are you? [14:36:07] jayvdb: Ohhh, really? [14:36:13] d3r1ck, ? [14:36:15] Hmmm... [14:36:26] andre__: :) [14:36:27] jayvdb, urgh :(( [14:36:37] jayvdb: Thats not cool [14:36:41] learn fast : give them lots of follow-these-steps instructions : e.g. https://github.com/coala/coala/wiki/Google-Code-In-Task-Use-coala [14:37:32] I tried to install Vagrant on two linux boxes .. I failed. [14:37:43] jayvdb: :( [14:37:49] one was Fedora. The other was Ubuntu i386 [14:38:09] That.... is a very well written task! [14:38:59] (...and Lasse will be happy about Coala task) [14:39:02] the wikimedia-vagrant is not OSS friendly - it has limited support for other versions of bundler, other versions of vagrant, etc, etc [14:40:28] and as most the advanced Wikimedia tasks depend on vagrant working, that is a big `;-(` [14:40:29] andre__: Did you understand my concern? :) [14:40:47] jayvdb: Yeah [14:41:37] We should have a note "do not join Wikimedia org unless you have an i686 Ubuntu machine" [14:41:41] jayvdb: This brings me to, What to learn : Time to learn before the contest starts is 11 : 2 [14:41:43] d3r1ck: no, not really :P [14:41:44] or maybe Windows is better - I didnt try that ;-) [14:42:22] andre__: ahhh, Ok. I will look for a better way to let us know about it :) [14:43:10] Actually ... three machines. One Fedora 24 and the other Fedora 25 [14:43:14] jayvdb: :-) [14:43:29] * andre__ needs to get a Windows machine again at some point. Only Fedora's around [14:44:28] jayvdb: Then what will Mac OS X users say? [14:44:36] jayvdb: Did you try a Mac OS? [14:44:42] I suspect we need to change our beginner instructions to use a ruby virtual env [14:45:05] so host is less relevant [14:46:32] but it would be better if our main developer environment was supported all major distros, with us providing packages if upstream doesnt do it for us [14:46:55] Regarding "Wikimedia-vagrant has limited support for other versions of bundler, other versions of vagrant" 7min ago, I wonder how to improve that (and if bd808 maybe has some ideas) [14:46:59] my wife runs Mac OS - she doesnt let me install stuff - very wise [14:47:44] :D [14:47:49] this beast https://github.com/wikimedia/mediawiki-vagrant [14:48:28] jayvdb: :D [14:48:45] "You must have a 64-bit processor" [14:49:24] well that is nice, but excludes lots of people in the developing world using old laptops [14:49:51] True [14:50:08] the 15 in the average medium income family here has their older siblings old laptop [14:50:30] s/15/15yo/ [14:50:49] the parents are saving money to send their kids overseas to university [14:52:01] jayvdb: cool, I see. [14:54:55] andre__: Also, asking a student if he/she knew that the org uses PHP and he/she know Java, why did he/she chosed Wikimedia, is that not a bit discouraging? [14:55:38] I personally is trying to handle these kids with much care, love and respect so they stay focused on what they are doing [14:56:19] I guess thats what all mentors should do? [14:56:41] d3r1ck: Again: Why do you care? [14:56:48] d3r1ck: How is that even an issue? [14:56:54] dont we have java projects? [14:57:00] d3r1ck: You do realize we have a good bunch of Java projects, do you? [14:57:14] Yeah [14:57:15] That's why I've repeatedly been asking here what the actual underlying problem is :) [14:57:25] We do but I doubt if we hav java tasks :) [14:57:39] *have [14:57:42] talk to those devs and ask them to create tasks ;-) [14:57:55] andre__: If we have Java tasks, then its fine. [14:58:03] jayvdb: Devs? :) [14:58:06] d3r1ck, of course we have. We do have KiwiX tasks. [14:58:14] developers [14:58:20] jayvdb: Well, ... [14:58:29] so when bringing this up you might want to actually explain your underlying root concern. Because only now I understand. [14:58:32] andre__: Ok, cool. :) [14:59:06] https://github.com/kiwix/kiwix is mostly C++ ? [14:59:37] anyway, we have Android apps, and that is Java [14:59:53] Wait... KiwiX was.... uhm. [14:59:55] * andre__ slaps himself [14:59:59] Mea Culpa. [15:00:13] Yeah, Android apps then, as a rescue for the wrong stuff I was writing :-/ [15:00:49] andre__: :D [15:00:58] andre__: No need to slap your self [15:01:07] As a potential solution to this problem: we create a list of easy-ish Wikimedia tasks for each major language [15:01:12] I totally agree if there is a Java project, then its fine. [15:01:27] so mentors can direct students to a better task, if they lack the knowledge for a task they have chosen [15:01:28] jayvdb: Thats a point +1 [15:02:07] We have some tags in Phabricator, like "CSS" or "JavaScript" but not consistently [15:02:13] jayvdb: Yeah, GCI is more of programming languages not really projects per say [15:02:23] so we could filter #easy tasks if they were consistently set [15:02:33] andre__: Yeah you are right. [15:02:33] and a list of "technical, but not programming" tasks. [15:02:35] might be another thought for https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T146960 [15:02:52] feel free to document those thoughts there, because on IRC they will get forgotten... [15:06:25] Ok