[01:38:05] 6Labs: project members don't see "Living-style-guide.design" instance in Nova_Resource:Design on wikitech - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T113214#1661852 (10scfc) The instance missing on https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Nova_Resource:Design is (probably) due to Semantic MediaWiki's database having gotten... [04:18:54] (03PS1) 10Greg Grossmeier: Remove scap announces in -operations [labs/tools/grrrit] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/240030 [04:21:34] (03CR) 10Ori.livneh: [C: 032] Remove scap announces in -operations [labs/tools/grrrit] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/240030 (owner: 10Greg Grossmeier) [04:21:37] (03Merged) 10jenkins-bot: Remove scap announces in -operations [labs/tools/grrrit] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/240030 (owner: 10Greg Grossmeier) [06:50:01] PROBLEM - Puppet failure on tools-exec-gift is CRITICAL: CRITICAL: 60.00% of data above the critical threshold [0.0] [07:25:01] RECOVERY - Puppet failure on tools-exec-gift is OK: OK: Less than 1.00% above the threshold [0.0] [10:23:47] who should I talk to for https://tools.wmflabs.org/para/Commons:Special:NewFiles ? it is causing a bunch of 503s in production when asking a lot of thumbs [10:59:37] godog: https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Para [12:02:49] valhallasw`cloud: *nod* thanks! [13:38:06] valhallasw`cloud: Hey, BTW, ReleaseTaggerBot really needs that patch of mine merged today… [13:38:24] *opens reddit, eh, gerrit* [13:38:34] valhallasw`cloud: https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/238542/ [13:38:48] valhallasw`cloud: 'Cos 1.27.0-wmf.1 starts today. [13:39:04] James_F: wait. wmf.1 or wmf1? [13:39:22] (03CR) 10Merlijn van Deen: [C: 032] Support wmf branches like '1.23.0-wmf.6' [labs/tools/forrestbot] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/238542 (https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T107192) (owner: 10Jforrester) [13:39:26] valhallasw`cloud: wmf.1. [13:39:28] Err. [13:39:30] (03Merged) 10jenkins-bot: Support wmf branches like '1.23.0-wmf.6' [labs/tools/forrestbot] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/238542 (https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T107192) (owner: 10Jforrester) [13:39:34] eh. [13:39:38] I think the patch doesn't address that one :P [13:39:39] valhallasw`cloud: "wmf/1.27.0-wmf.1" [13:39:42] Hmm. [13:39:44] * James_F looks. [13:39:47] 1.27.2-wmf1 [13:39:49] that's not .1 [13:39:52] Yeah, it does. [13:39:53] minor = minor.replace('.', '') [13:39:58] That's there for this reason. [13:40:01] oh, it's just not tested [13:40:03] But we should add a test asserting. [13:40:08] * James_F writes a patch. [13:40:11] <3 [13:41:03] (03CR) 10Merlijn van Deen: [C: 032] build: Test with flake8 too, and make pass [labs/tools/forrestbot] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/239446 (owner: 10Jforrester) [13:41:11] (03Merged) 10jenkins-bot: build: Test with flake8 too, and make pass [labs/tools/forrestbot] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/239446 (owner: 10Jforrester) [13:41:37] (03PS1) 10Jforrester: Assert that '1.23.0-wmf.6' and '1.23.0-wmf.6' both work [labs/tools/forrestbot] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/240090 [13:41:41] There. [13:41:49] Oh. [13:41:52] Bah. [13:42:02] (03PS2) 10Jforrester: Assert that '1.23.0-wmf.6' and '1.23.0-wmf6' both work [labs/tools/forrestbot] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/240090 [13:42:06] * James_F coughs. [13:43:06] (03CR) 10Merlijn van Deen: [C: 032] Assert that '1.23.0-wmf.6' and '1.23.0-wmf6' both work [labs/tools/forrestbot] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/240090 (owner: 10Jforrester) [13:43:12] (03Merged) 10jenkins-bot: Assert that '1.23.0-wmf.6' and '1.23.0-wmf6' both work [labs/tools/forrestbot] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/240090 (owner: 10Jforrester) [13:43:20] Yay. [13:43:28] valhallasw`cloud: Want to do a deploy? [13:44:13] eeeeh [13:44:55] !log tools.forrestbot git pulled up to 24e13877f7409fe08a9c81f2275b5903214c4e61 [13:44:58] Logged the message at https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Nova_Resource:Tools.forrestbot/SAL, Master [13:45:32] it seems to not immediately crash when I run it [13:45:36] which I suppose means it works [13:46:18] * James_F grins. [13:46:20] Hopefully! [13:56:34] (03PS1) 10Merlijn van Deen: Logging: change em-dash to - [labs/tools/forrestbot] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/240092 [13:57:26] (03CR) 10Jforrester: [C: 032] "Yay for Unicode. :-P" [labs/tools/forrestbot] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/240092 (owner: 10Merlijn van Deen) [13:57:33] (03Merged) 10jenkins-bot: Logging: change em-dash to - [labs/tools/forrestbot] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/240092 (owner: 10Merlijn van Deen) [13:57:42] James_F: I'm disappointed the output doesn't just show the em-dash :-p [13:57:47] but that might be because of locale=C [13:57:57] * James_F nods. [13:58:14] * James_F heads off. [13:58:16] well, deployed. [14:52:33] 6Labs, 10Maps: maps-warper /mnt vbd partition errored, turned read only and went missing after reboot - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T112641#1662866 (10Chippyy) I removed old kernels and uninstalled emacs and installed localepurge to remove unused locales and that freed up a whopping 1.5G so the urgency... [14:55:04] 6Labs: Map Warper - No space left on device - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T102414#1662874 (10Chippyy) I tried re-adding labs::lvm::srv but nothing happened, even after a reboot. Should i open a ticket for that? However as my comment on the blocking task T112641 says, I have freed up 1.5G of space by removi... [14:55:50] 6Labs: Map Warper - No space left on device - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T102414#1662877 (10Chippyy) 5Open>3Resolved marking as resolved as removing old kernel and unused packages and unused locales freed up space on the one partition thats working. [16:43:06] legoktm: "{url}: merged in branch {branch}, Task {task}, needs slugs ['mw1.26wmf24']" in the forrestbot logs. Wut? [16:43:24] how does that not cause a KeyError O_o [16:43:56] (well, with format(url="{url}"), I suppose) [16:48:43] seems to be related to something recent, though; it was OK before this mornings' deploy [16:49:46] oh, I see what happened [16:50:04] * valhallasw`cloud isn't on master [16:50:50] pep8-ing broke all the things \o/ [16:52:23] (03PS1) 10Merlijn van Deen: fix .formats() [labs/tools/forrestbot] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/240125 [16:52:37] yuvipanda: Yuvi|Panda: (which one is your nick?) what will we do about array jobs in the future? will we start e.g. 200 k8s-containers (?) in parallel instead of qsub -t 1:200? [16:52:59] we'll work those out as we go I think :) [16:53:31] but probably, yes. The containers are supposed to be light enough for that, I think. [16:54:01] don't think we'll run all 200 at once, I suppose? [16:54:12] does kubernetes do queuing? [16:54:40] we can limit the number of pods (group of containers, unit of execution) [16:55:00] (am in a meeting simultaneously) [16:55:59] also I think if we do limit we'll limit by mem / CPU [16:56:08] so if you get X gigs [16:56:20] and your current set of containers already satisfy that [16:56:35] the other ones will just sit there spinning until they can get scheduled [16:56:37] however [16:56:45] the right way to do these is to do queueing in the code itself, IMO [16:57:22] eh, doesn't work, i tried [16:57:28] 6Labs, 10Maps: maps-warper /mnt vbd partition errored, turned read only and went missing after reboot - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T112641#1663341 (10scfc) Are there Puppet errors? What does the output of `sudo puppet agent -tv` say? [16:57:29] valhallasw`cloud: good morning [16:57:30] and also, yes, all at once [16:57:40] heh [16:57:43] (03CR) 10Legoktm: [C: 032] fix .formats() [labs/tools/forrestbot] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/240125 (owner: 10Merlijn van Deen) [16:57:50] (03Merged) 10jenkins-bot: fix .formats() [labs/tools/forrestbot] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/240125 (owner: 10Merlijn van Deen) [16:58:07] it's a classic! [16:58:13] gifti: what do you mean by 'does not work' [17:05:27] Yuvi|Panda: data loss [17:05:43] data loss where? [17:05:58] can you create a phab ticket / wiki page with details? [17:06:00] * Yuvi|Panda is curious [17:06:08] ugh [17:07:40] maybe it works if i have different output files for every thread [17:08:25] ah what does the bot do actually? [17:09:04] check the externallinks in article namespace of dewiki [17:09:12] ok, and what is the output? [17:09:22] the url and the response code(s) [17:10:17] 6Labs, 10Maps: maps-warper /mnt vbd partition errored, turned read only and went missing after reboot - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T112641#1663392 (10Chippyy) Yes there does appear to be errors. sudo puppet agent -tv ``` chippy@maps-warper:~$ sudo puppet agent -tv NOTE: Gem.latest_load_paths is depr... [17:10:45] we had the whole discussion before and it resulted in the dedicated exec node [17:11:44] yuvipanda: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T99130 [17:12:03] Anyone here experienced with PHP on Windows. [17:12:31] yuvipanda: and https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T53310 [17:12:37] yuvipanda, ^ know anyone? [17:12:51] valhallasw`cloud: heh [17:13:39] Cyberpower678: just ask the question? [17:14:01] the current setup is very stable, i dare not touch it ;) [17:14:09] even if no-one has the answer, formulating the question might help you find the answer [17:14:41] Coren, do you know if the pthread library is installed for PHP? [17:15:14] valhallasw`cloud, I'm trying to install pthread for Windows for PHP. [17:15:50] But I'm getting wierd load errors. [17:16:04] The file is there, but it can't find it. :| [17:16:36] valhallasw`cloud, Warning: PHP Startup: Unable to load dynamic library 'C:\Program Files (x86)\NuSphere\PhpED\php54\extensions\php_pthreads.dll' - The specified procedure could not be found. [17:16:36] in Unknown on line 0 [17:16:44] * gifti goes to sleep [17:16:56] Cyberpower678: run dependency explorer on that dll [17:17:05] assuming the file exists in that place [17:17:10] valhallasw`cloud, NEVER HEARD OF IT. What is it? [17:17:22] Oops [17:17:30] Sorry. I didn't mean to shout. [17:17:32] http://www.dependencywalker.com/ [17:17:48] it'll tell you which file it can't find [17:18:46] Cool. [17:18:49] Running it now. [17:19:05] also, make sure the dll is for the same version of php, it could also be there's an API mismatch there [17:19:46] That is the problem. I can't tell, becuase the documentation lacks in that area. I got a version prior to 3 as that is for PHP 7. [17:20:15] there are some notes under https://secure.php.net/manual/en/pthreads.installation.php [17:21:06] I don't think we have that module on tool labs, though. [17:21:59] (php -m doens't show pthread, and it's not in the package repo) [17:22:27] I've been reading them. I want to use this module for my newest bot, so I'm going to need the module on labs too. [17:23:22] gifti: valhallasw`cloud the ticket was closed with 'I do not see why there is a need for a dedicated exec node' [17:23:39] Cyberpower678: you can try to compile it yourself, and hook it into php-fcgi, but it's not going to be installed by us. [17:24:04] * Coren points out that PHP is a horrible language to thread in the first place. [17:24:31] * Cyberpower678 reminds Coren that he knows, but it's the language he's most familiar with. [17:24:54] Besides I'm not going to rewrite all of my bots into a different language. [17:30:36] valhallasw`cloud, if I had to guess, because it's the first time looking at it, it could be an incompatibility with Windows 10 [17:32:47] Knowing the effort Microsoft puts in backwards compatibility, that sounds unlikely [17:33:17] Then what is API-MS-WIN-CORE-APIQUERY-L1-1-0.DLL [17:33:28] Becuase it's one of many files that can't be found. [17:34:15] valhallasw`cloud, ^ [17:34:34] Coren: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T53310 ends with you asking a question but the exec node is present? [17:36:26] Cyberpower678: Google? [17:36:28] valhallasw`cloud, It's definitely a windows module [17:36:43] yuvipanda: checking. [17:36:43] And crap ton of those are missing. [17:36:51] By the way, why are there three of you? [17:37:20] Coren, haven't you heard. yuvipanda successfully performed cloning experiments of himself. [17:37:32] There are now 3 yuvipandas in real life. [17:38:49] valhallasw`cloud, either that means Windows 10 is broken in many ways on my machine, or it's not as backwards compatible as it should be. [17:39:21] yuvipanda: I was about to tell you that it's for a different bot than giftbot but then I reread the task and noticed that it *is* giftbot. [17:39:31] indeed [17:39:47] yuvipanda: I think gifti has forgotten that he asked me this a year ago - and has had it available for that long. :-) [17:40:02] I thought he needed a new one for a different bot. [17:40:27] valhallasw`cloud, I'm going to try something. [17:40:34] Coren: no, this is from a year ago [17:40:41] Coren: and it is the original request [17:40:58] * Coren is an idiot. [17:41:01] Coren: it seems to have been granted and the ticket is closed as resolved but the last questions there have been always 'why do you need this' [17:41:28] Heh. He explained on IRC at the time. I really should have copied the rationale. [17:41:31] (there are multiple of me because I thought I can get away without an IRC bouncer and that is wrong) [17:41:37] yes... [17:41:54] yuvi: I may still have it in my logs. I'll hunt for it. [17:42:01] ok [17:43:59] 6Labs: project members don't see "Living-style-guide.design" instance in Nova_Resource:Design on wikitech - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T113214#1663614 (10Andrew) Indeed, that looks to have been the problem -- I refreshed SMW and can see the instance now. [17:44:15] valhallasw`cloud, thank you for your help. pthreads appears to be working now. :-) [17:48:18] Hi, I have delete some modules in /data/project/cobain/pyircbots/geni 3.0/commands/ [17:49:14] has labs made any backup of this folder? [17:50:56] valhallasw`cloud: ^^ [17:57:54] yuvipanda, has wmflabs server made a backup recently? I have deleted some modules erroneously in /data/project/cobain/pyircbots/geni 3.0/commands/, can i recover they? [17:58:31] coet|cawiki: coren would know but I think the answer is mostly 'yes [17:58:32] ' [17:59:00] Yeah, "mostly yes", but we don't keep several backups. Was the file there yesterday? [17:59:35] yes [18:01:17] coet|cawiki: Did you mean /data//project/cobain/public_html/pyircbots/... [18:01:38] Because I don't see a pyircbots directory at all in the tool's home; only in public_html [18:01:52] sorry, yes, I forgot /public_html/ [18:03:40] I have erased files from search.py to zzz.py [18:04:26] I think that they are four files, but I don't remember all names, the last was wiki.py [18:06:40] search.py stills 'alive', I only deleted four files after search.py (alphabetically talking) [18:08:19] coet|cawiki: Put all the *.py in /data/project/cobain/.recovery/ [18:10:19] ok, thanks!!! Coren, and sorry for waste you time with my mistakes :S [18:10:48] I'm glad I could help. Be careful not to rely on dr backups against user error though. :-) [18:16:01] admin? [18:18:32] UA31_: what's up? [18:19:23] How can I install a perl module [18:20:13] UA31_: ideally it's packaged in the distro. are you on your own instance or on tool labs? [18:20:24] apt-cache search it first [18:21:13] mutante:in my instance [18:21:41] UA31_: so yea, try with apt-get install first, only if that doesnt exist consider using "cpan" shell [18:22:16] the best way of all is if you puppetize the install of the package [18:22:29] and then just apply the puppet class to the instance [18:24:01] Permission denied [18:25:14] for which command? [18:25:26] use "sudo" or become root first [18:28:01] I don't have admin password [18:28:38] Installing cpan module without admin privileges? [18:31:08] 6Labs, 10Deployment-Systems, 10Labs-Infrastructure, 10Salt, and 2 others: Can not use git-deploy from tin.eqiad.wmnet to labnodepool1001.eqiad.wmnet - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T111925#1663775 (10hashar) @andrew and @yuvipanda i discovered we can not git-deploy from the deployment server (tin) to h... [18:34:16] UA31_: assuming this is on toollabs, http://stackoverflow.com/questions/540640/how-can-i-install-a-cpan-module-into-a-local-directory [18:38:08] UA31_: or http://perlbrew.pl/ [18:39:34] 6Labs, 10Tool-Labs: create dedicated instance for exturl checking - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T53310#1663812 (10yuvipanda) This was granted, can someone explain the rationale? [18:45:40] yuvipanda:Can't locate ---- in @INC [18:46:37] was just googling and spouting bs [18:46:44] * yuvipanda doesn't know any perl [18:46:54] try perlbrew? [18:47:24] I installed the module localy in ~/perl5/... [18:48:24] UA31_: perl should let you know the paths it's checking [18:48:43] (@INC contains: ...) [18:49:52] http://foswiki.org/Support.HowToInstallCpanModules#Setting_up_a_private_CPAN_library_45_without_admin_privileges has a few notes as well [18:51:03] @INC contains my dir [18:55:59] ok I have installed the module [18:56:10] Thanks [19:03:42] valhallasw`cloud: I wonder if we should just install perlbrew [19:04:08] Yuvi|Panda: do we want people to compile their own perls? [19:04:40] hmmm [19:04:46] people do that for node (nvm) now [19:05:02] would like people to install their own modules [19:05:08] I guess you don't need perlbrew for that [19:05:18] 6Labs, 10Labs-Infrastructure, 5Continuous-Integration-Scaling: Evaluate impact of giant VM images on labs infrastructure - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T113394#1663916 (10hashar) 3NEW a:3Andrew [19:08:46] Yuvi|Panda: yeah, and ruby as well probably [19:08:57] if perlbrew is the easiest way to do isolated packages, let's do perlbrew [19:09:09] there's a docker package as well [19:10:57] yeah [19:12:50] PROBLEM - Puppet failure on tools-checker-02 is CRITICAL: CRITICAL: 50.00% of data above the critical threshold [0.0] [19:12:53] of course, pulling in perlbrew also pulls in the entire world [19:13:07] cpp cpp-4.8 gcc gcc-4.8 libasan0 libatomic1 libcapture-tiny-perl libcloog-isl4 libcpan-perl-releases-perl libdevel-patchperl-perl libfile-pushd-perl libgcc-4.8-dev libisl10 libitm1 liblocal-lib-perl libtsan0 perlbrew [19:13:22] but that's probably OK? [19:16:17] heh [19:16:19] yeah [19:16:42] like people can install perlbrew with curling something into bash [19:21:12] PROBLEM - Puppet failure on tools-checker-01 is CRITICAL: CRITICAL: 33.33% of data above the critical threshold [0.0] [19:33:52] 6Labs, 10Maps: maps-warper /mnt vbd partition errored, turned read only and went missing after reboot - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T112641#1664053 (10scfc) It looks like the package `parted` is missing. This package was added to the Precise image (as an implicit dependency of `ubuntu-standard`) before... [19:39:08] 6Labs, 10Tool-Labs, 3Labs-Sprint-114, 3Labs-Sprint-115, and 2 others: Setup a tools checker service that can check all internal services for availability - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T97748#1664068 (10Andrew) [19:39:19] 6Labs, 3Labs-Sprint-108, 3Labs-Sprint-109, 3Labs-Sprint-114, 3labs-sprint-113: Have catchpoint checks for all labs services (Tracking) - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T107058#1664070 (10Andrew) [19:42:49] RECOVERY - Puppet failure on tools-checker-02 is OK: OK: Less than 1.00% above the threshold [0.0] [19:43:00] 6Labs, 3Labs-Sprint-108, 3Labs-Sprint-109, 3Labs-Sprint-114, 3labs-sprint-113: Have catchpoint checks for all labs services (Tracking) - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T107058#1664086 (10Andrew) All these tests are now running in catchpoint. I'm not getting alerts for them, though, which suggests tha... [19:45:04] Change on 12wikitech.wikimedia.org a page Nova Resource:Tools/Access Request/Ivan was modified, changed by Tim Landscheidt link https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?diff=184204 edit summary: [20:24:28] (03Abandoned) 10Andrew Bogott: Added dummy ceph passwords [labs/private] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/212943 (owner: 10Andrew Bogott) [21:33:08] 10Wikibugs: Add pywikibot-flow to #wikimedia-collaboration channel - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T113417#1664482 (10Quiddity) [21:55:51] Yuvi|Panda: I’m trying to catch up a bit on kubernetes… all the third party docs describe using it along with docker… is that the case for your design as well, or are we somehow container-agnostic? [22:29:41] andrewbogott: yup we are going to be using docker too [22:31:45] yuvipanda: ok, then all these slide decks should apply :) [22:32:07] andrewbogott: yes [22:32:19] In the ideal case [22:32:24] We would be just [22:32:36] Yet another kubernetes cluster [22:33:01] And upstream is very receptive! [22:36:47] hi yuvipanda [22:38:57] andrewbogott: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T112855 discusses our docker strategy [22:40:18] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T111885 is tracking ticket [22:41:25] thx [22:41:33] 6Labs, 10Tool-Labs, 6Design Research Backlog, 6Learning-and-Evaluation, and 2 others: Organize a (annual?) toollabs survey - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T95155#1664658 (10yuvipanda) Oops, I've been flaky. I'll send this out on Wednesday... Apologies for the delay [22:42:32] 6Labs, 10Tool-Labs, 6Design Research Backlog, 6Learning-and-Evaluation, and 2 others: Organize a (annual?) toollabs survey - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T95155#1664661 (10leila) [22:50:33] (03PS1) 10Legoktm: Pywikibot-Flow → #wikimedia-collaboration [labs/tools/wikibugs2] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/240285 (https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T113417) [22:53:10] (03CR) 10Legoktm: [C: 032] Pywikibot-Flow → #wikimedia-collaboration [labs/tools/wikibugs2] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/240285 (https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T113417) (owner: 10Legoktm) [22:53:27] (03Merged) 10jenkins-bot: Pywikibot-Flow → #wikimedia-collaboration [labs/tools/wikibugs2] - 10https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/240285 (https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T113417) (owner: 10Legoktm) [22:54:19] !log tools.wikibugs Updated channels.yaml to: 40a3bfed7706047eb5df3b7f36fda29c54cec3fc Pywikibot-Flow → #wikimedia-collaboration [22:54:22] Logged the message at https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Nova_Resource:Tools.wikibugs/SAL, Master [22:56:08] 10Wikibugs, 5Patch-For-Review: Add pywikibot-flow to #wikimedia-collaboration channel - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T113417#1664679 (10Legoktm) 5Open>3Resolved a:3Legoktm [15:54:20] !log tools.wikibugs Updated channels.yaml to: 40a3bfed7706047eb5df3b7f36fda29c54cec3fc Pywikibot-Flow → #w... [23:06:07] Coren, it seems Orain is pretty much fucked for good.