[00:00:00] From upload wizard. [00:00:05] sorry my colloquy just crashed [00:00:13] when it says "upload" people treat it like flickr. [00:00:31] jorm: i think i know what you are going to say and i agree [00:00:33] and then get really upset when other people use private photos. they don't intend for them to be used. they don't understand that it's not a simple data store. [00:00:51] when we changed the wording to "donate" the complaints dropped off to nothing. [00:01:13] no one ever reads the comic strip thing about copyrights. so saying "donate" sets a pretty solid expectation. [00:01:19] my only worry is how we stop the word "Donate" in the menu from being confused with donating money [00:01:27] now, if you're talking consistency with the sidebar, you change the verbage. [00:01:35] "Donate Images" or "Image Donations" [00:01:39] two words instead of one. [00:01:45] so i think the situation we have where the menu says "Uploads" and then the button that actually triggers the upload says "donate an image" is good [00:02:03] I'd be okay with that, but maryana may think different. [00:02:04] jorm: in future i guess we want to donate other things as well - like videos [00:02:07] does that subtlety work for localization purposes? [00:02:15] that's a siebrand question. [00:02:35] yup [00:02:48] this could be resolved in the qq(). "This MUST imply that the user is giving it away" [00:03:14] jorm: +1 [00:03:33] meh, siebrand's not around, but that seems sensible to me [00:03:49] the translatewiki peeps are smrt. they'll get it. [00:03:59] and also highlighting the correlation between upload image and donate image in the qqq [00:04:07] right. [00:04:21] hrm. [00:04:34] we can donate other stuff besides images right now. basically any File: [00:04:38] Maryana: "that's perfect i like that" < awjr [00:04:41] but not on mobile, right? no video uploads. [00:04:49] i can confirm that those were indeed my words [00:04:55] lol [00:05:07] which is perfect? the correlation? [00:05:22] the result of https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/53689/ [00:05:27] the way jdlrobson's got it set up there ^ [00:05:34] so the page is called Uploads but the button says "Donate an image" [00:05:42] the title of the page should be uploads because it's also the user's upload contributions view [00:05:46] yeah, that's good. [00:05:49] but the button says "donate an image" [00:05:53] "Uploads" is pretty generic and we can use it in the future. [00:05:54] so awjr merge away [00:05:57] to actually trigger the upload action [00:05:59] maybe add a "Donate a video" [00:06:04] "Donate a map" [00:06:05] etc. [00:06:13] yeah, we can play with that when we need to [00:06:18] for now it's just images [00:06:24] i like it for two reasons. [00:06:30] 1) it doesn't trap us into "just images" [00:06:37] ayup :) [00:06:38] 2) it won't require re-localization in the future. [00:06:48] and it covers both the action and the contributions view [00:07:27] are you thinking in the future to merge "Uploads" and "Contributions"? [00:07:45] i can see an awesome thing with that. [00:07:54] wait, jdlrobson, based on this conversation shouldn't we be leaving things as 'DonateImage' then? [00:08:04] Change abandoned: Jdlrobson; "After talking with Maryana we've decided to descope this for now - it's not as trivial as we first t..." [mediawiki/extensions/MobileFrontend] (master) - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/54099 [00:08:09] awjr: no [00:08:14] so confused [00:08:19] awjr: just merge :) [00:08:22] don't think [00:08:24] like, you click "contributions", and it takes you to a page that lists all your uploads and edits, of course, but at the top it has some buttons. "Donate Image" and then a "Look for Shit to Do" that activates suggestions. [00:08:26] :P [00:08:33] awjr, the chrome still says uploads, and the page name is uploads [00:08:43] it's just the button that says donate image, which is fine [00:08:45] but the action a user is asked to make is a 'donate image' [00:08:49] yeah ok that makes sense [00:08:53] thanks :) [00:08:56] we'll have a tutorial for first-time users that explains this a little more, too [00:09:26] guhhh my allergies have gone haywire today and have muddled my brain [00:10:00] hehehe [00:10:42] merge my pretty! merge! http://www.faniq.com/images/blog/6f4ef0ab7907bae3c5947abd3f6bba42.jpg [00:10:57] * jorm almost makes a "my alcoholism has gone haywire joke"; realizes people may take him seriously; thinks better of it. [00:11:02] * jorm still does it anyway. [00:11:27] is jenkins broken? it doesn't seem to submit stuff straight awaty.. [00:11:32] https://www.dropbox.com/sh/oqgwmlwlpdwhff3/FrXZvJJTMK [00:11:40] yeah im not sure what's going on with that... [00:11:43] uploads tutorial for people with 0 uploads ^ [00:11:52] and the 'submit' button is disabled [00:11:58] sanity-check mah copy, plz [00:12:06] jorm ^^ [00:13:05] Maryana, here are your edits (one sec) [00:14:32] Wikipedia needs ''your'' photos to bring its pages to life. [00:14:32] Please ''donate'' original photos that have educational value. [00:14:32] Your donated images will be shared, reused, and remixed by ''millions''. [00:14:54] replace '' with ''' as necessary. added periods; personalized text; called out that images are donated in 3rd entry. [00:15:17] pls ack. [00:16:34] syn ack syn [00:16:48] wat [00:17:03] nerdspeak. [00:17:13] tcp request handshake. syn ack syn [00:17:31] sorry, not the nerdspeak of my generation :) [00:17:34] (technically, it's syn, syn-ack, ack) [00:17:50] can you instagram that to my tumblrs, plz? [00:17:50] read up! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_Control_Protocol [00:18:39] basically it says "SYNchronize?" "ACKnowledge! SYNchronized!" "ACKknowledged!" [00:18:48] thanks, lazywebs! [00:18:56] :D [00:19:07] my only hesitation is that these messages will be localized, and maybe the emphasis will be weird in different languages? [00:19:09] it helps if you read that in a dalek voice. [00:19:19] SYNCHRONIZE! SYNCHRONIZE! [00:19:27] oh, i read everything on IRC in a dalek voice [00:19:29] kill the emphasis, then. [00:20:01] i would really like "remixed by millions of people worldwide" as marketing copy but that may be excessively long. [00:20:23] yeah, i like that too, but it's a little too wordy [00:20:43] right. just "millions" gets it across. [00:20:58] "millions of white males in north america and europe" to be precise [00:21:00] ;) [00:21:36] k, cool, i will update the copy - you're right about the added politeness [00:21:48] "donate stuff!" sounds a little marching ordersy [00:26:59] jdlrobson: merge conflict: https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/53689/ [00:27:06] fs [00:27:40] New patchset: Jdlrobson; "Bug 44484: Use template to render language section" [mediawiki/extensions/MobileFrontend] (master) - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/52173 [00:28:14] New patchset: Jdlrobson; "Rebrand DonateImage as Uploads" [mediawiki/extensions/MobileFrontend] (master) - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/53689 [00:28:15] gerrit is broken - i just did git rebase - no problems [00:28:33] New review: Jdlrobson; "rebased and merged" [mediawiki/extensions/MobileFrontend] (master); V: 2 C: 2; - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/53689 [00:28:34] Change merged: Jdlrobson; [mediawiki/extensions/MobileFrontend] (master) - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/53689 [00:33:44] awjr: how are you feeling for tomorrows review ? [00:34:05] ooh, jorm, one more thing [00:34:11] photos vs. images [00:34:19] we use "photos" on the first two panels [00:34:23] and "images" on the last [00:34:35] pretty good tfinc [00:35:03] and the buttons all say "image" [00:35:19] awjr: do you need anything else from me for the review today/tomorrow ? [00:35:30] not that i can think of tfinc [00:35:34] awjr: k [00:36:11] awjr: did you want me to kick things off at the meeting tomorrow or do you want to own that ? [00:36:16] i'm ok either way [00:36:49] tfinc im fine kicking it off [00:37:04] awjr: great. then i'll just get the a/v gear going [00:37:09] cool thanks [00:39:13] let's stay with "images", then. [00:39:21] that's a broad term. covers everything. [00:50:39] New patchset: Jdlrobson; "Alpha: Surface talk pages on article" [mediawiki/extensions/MobileFrontend] (master) - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/54140 [00:52:14] New review: Jdlrobson; "Needs https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/54069/ to work." [mediawiki/extensions/MobileFrontend] (master) - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/54140 [01:37:12] New patchset: Jdlrobson; "Add explanation overlay to photo upload view" [mediawiki/extensions/MobileFrontend] (master) - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/53877 [01:37:12] New patchset: Jdlrobson; "Rewrite createOverlay to use an Overlay View that is stackable" [mediawiki/extensions/MobileFrontend] (master) - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/54069 [11:09:15] all I need is a bugzilla app. then I can sell my computer. [13:24:32] New patchset: Zfilipin; "Updated multi_json Ruby gem" [mediawiki/extensions/MobileFrontend] (master) - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/54649 [13:40:44] New review: Cmcmahon; "maintenance" [mediawiki/extensions/MobileFrontend] (master); V: 2 C: 2; - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/54649 [13:40:47] Change merged: Cmcmahon; [mediawiki/extensions/MobileFrontend] (master) - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/54649 [13:41:48] New review: Cmcmahon; "add template for mobile tests" [mediawiki/extensions/MobileFrontend] (master); V: 2 C: 2; - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/54519 [13:41:50] Change merged: Cmcmahon; [mediawiki/extensions/MobileFrontend] (master) - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/54519 [16:54:56] I'm having parse errors with http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikimedia/squids/SquidReportClients.htm [16:55:27] lgtm MaxSem [16:55:57] WAP browsers have made 5M HTML requests and 88M total [16:56:17] that means a lot of pics per page [16:56:32] images get sent for wap? [16:56:45] which is not realistic because WAP view is per-section [16:57:08] awjr, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KDDI?useformat=mobile-wap [16:57:18] wow… 0.01% of html pages, 0.03% of all http requests. [16:57:44] is that little enough to warrant stopping support? [16:58:12] that's what I'm trying to understand before our today's perf review [16:58:31] so are the stats wrong and some of these browsers actually use HTML view? [17:01:43] lol, so safari just displays page xml for WAP view [17:02:10] FF asks you to save it [17:03:13] >_< [17:03:20] chrome does the same stuff as Safari [17:03:30] only Opera knows WTF WAP is [17:04:11] it chokes on our WML anyway and you have to click once to actually view page [17:05:55] hmm, did I scare jorm by mentioning WAP?:P [17:09:37] * tfinc looks about [17:09:44] yuck Xcode upgrade [17:09:47] there goes my hdrive space [17:11:40] yurik: welcome to day 2 [17:12:00] awjr: do we have anything else to do for the arch review ? [17:12:09] i'm trying to confirm marks attendance [17:12:10] tfinc, any thoughts about at which request rate we will be able to kill WAP view? [17:12:18] good question [17:12:20] tfinc im gonna mail some stuff out to the team shortly but i dont really think so [17:12:39] we seem to like <1% in most places but i'm not willing to put a number on it yet [17:12:47] what is the actual request rate that we are seeing ? [17:12:53] 0.03% [17:13:14] is that total across desktop & mobile or just a fraction of mobile [17:13:55] total - per http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikimedia/squids/SquidReportClients.htm [17:14:46] the question is whether this statistic lies [17:14:48] and are we looking to kill it to keep things simple ? [17:15:20] and to have less things to vary on [17:17:51] tfinc, :) [17:17:59] hey yurik [17:18:05] i reached out to dan earlier [17:18:11] we need to figure out sw for you don't we ? [17:18:12] not sure what his nick is [17:18:24] sw? [17:18:25] usually dfoy when he's around here [17:18:38] semantic wiki conf [17:18:42] oh yes [17:18:44] smf [17:18:48] smw [17:18:48] sure [17:18:50] bleh [17:19:05] lets bring it up at the 1pm today and see if it gets in the way of anything [17:20:36] tfinc, is there a metting at 1? i don't have it on my calendar for some reason [17:20:49] oh, sorry [17:20:50] i do [17:20:56] its at 4 :) [17:20:57] yurik: you not only have it but you accepted it [17:21:17] need to have that 3 hr diff hardwired into my brain :) [17:21:18] whenever you see time in this channel assume that its SF time [17:21:24] yup [17:21:25] of course :) [17:21:29] * tfinc looks around for brion [17:23:27] awjr: is there a preview that i can see for the caching review ? [17:23:34] email coming tfinc [17:28:13] hey YuviPanda [17:28:55] awjr: what did you end up using for the arch diagram ? [17:29:01] tfinc: dia [17:30:05] awjr: the mobile and non mobile caches talk to each other ? [17:30:32] well squid handles redirection to .m domain which gets handled by varnish [17:31:14] there's a legend missing - the red arrows are for requests on .m domains [17:31:20] ahh [17:31:29] thats what your trying to say [17:31:35] i dont see a legend [17:31:44] that's because there isn't one :) [17:34:37] awjr, tfinc - so what are we going to review, caching or overall mobile stuff? [17:34:54] MaxSem: i understood this as an architecture review, so more than just caching [17:34:54] brion: lets get adam on IRC today [17:35:08] plus folks from platform have been invited [17:35:19] yup. but we knew their are caching issues thus we need to talk about them [17:35:26] thats whats gotten us to this discussion [17:35:26] im in ur docs, vandelizin ur presentationz [17:35:32] sweet [17:35:36] indeed [17:40:10] brion: when did you book the onboarding training block with adam and yuri ? [17:40:28] provisionally some time wednesday, haven't blocked it off yet [17:40:28] my allergies seriously flared up yesterday afternoon and now i feel like my head is inside a fishbowl [17:43:12] brion: please put up a calendar invite so that dan knows. yurik is also trying to line up a smw conf so knowing the timing is key [17:43:22] ok [17:43:57] brion: jdlrobson : do we need a kindle4 for testing ? [17:45:17] they scheduled me for the talk on fri morning (8:30am PST), so should be done before the work day even starts :) The rest of the conf would be very interesting, but only if its not conflicting with anything else [17:45:18] dr0ptp4kt: welcome…. to irc [17:45:49] thanks brion! [17:46:05] yurik, dr0ptp4kt , dfoy : I want to schedule some time wednesday, anything on your schedules already? [17:46:13] * YuviPanda looks around [17:46:26] hey notnarayan [17:46:41] wed there is a security training [17:46:42] YuviPanda: notnarayan check out the link i just sent to mobile-tech. its what i was talking about a couple of weeks back. we can tackle it when we get to discover [17:46:51] brion: Afternoon is ok [17:46:52] * YuviPanda checks email [17:47:03] ok [17:47:12] let them pee? [17:47:14] yurik: how's afternoon PDT look for you? [17:47:23] dr0ptp4kt: ^ [17:47:30] brion, yep, sounds good [17:47:55] even the security training is IRC only without video, so i might have to do it when i'm in next week [17:48:06] bleh, really contrived example. [17:48:08] I hate those [17:48:12] great, let's say 1-3ish? we'll go over zero arch and show you what switches we're going to flip for the partner testing [17:48:37] brion, sure. are you sending out invite? [17:48:42] yep [17:48:46] cool [17:49:02] brion: the create account code merged yet? [17:49:07] who are you gonna poke to merge? [17:49:15] csteipp gave it a look? [17:49:25] my laptop camera broke down completelly, so you will only see some photoshoped images of me [17:49:26] brion: sounds good [17:49:34] tfinc: yup, lets do that when we get to discover :) btw, when will that be ? [17:49:57] notnarayan: not until we have account creation and were in both stores [17:50:04] YuviPanda: not merged yet :( but fewer complaints on the latest rev [17:50:07] along with campaigns [17:50:09] :D [17:50:16] yeah, definitely campaigns first [17:50:19] were still in contributor acquistion mode [17:50:32] got it! [17:50:32] not just casual browser [17:50:32] I'd also have taken that article a lot more seriously without it's incredibly convoluted example. [17:51:01] brion, i guess i should look at that patch again. (and I still don't like implicit int->bool conversions :) ) [17:51:08] but I do agree on adding 'hooks' - Maryana was mentioning how the watchlist was a major 'hook' for the account creation [17:51:10] (on web) [17:51:13] yurik: :) [17:51:40] brion: dr0ptp4kt == adam ? [17:51:48] yep [17:51:49] hey, somebody was actually paying attention to my talk :) [17:51:52] greetings dr0ptp4kt [17:52:02] YuviPanda: multiple upload post upload actions https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Multiple-upload-post-upload.png [17:52:17] thanks tfinc [17:52:22] notnarayan: ragesoss and brion had some comments about single upload post actions, did you respond to those? [17:53:23] point me to them please, i may have missed them. [17:53:38] is this from yesterdays IRC conversation YuviPanda [17:53:47] yes [17:53:50] look at the logs? [17:54:38] YuviPanda, that's a very descriptive topic! [17:54:44] goddamn it [17:54:47] grr [17:54:55] /topic *had* them [17:54:55] not anymore [17:55:04] LOL [17:55:04] can someone restore the topic? [17:55:09] my client doesn't have previous ones :| [17:55:34] heh :P [17:55:39] but the last topic was *useful!* [17:56:33] there goes that [17:56:35] better, I think? [17:56:40] notnarayan: see /topic for logs :) [17:57:35] YuviPanda: I'm posting on the lists too :) [17:57:52] * yurik is already swamped in emails... purging mailbox [17:59:21] notnarayan: see the logs. I think brion and ragesoss' concern was how there were multiple 'actions' there - share, and 'update' [17:59:50] yes, will look into that [17:59:54] ok [18:02:01] notnarayan: http://pastebin.com/cuD4eXK9 [18:02:49] ragesoss: thanks :) [18:12:55] tfinc: android app uploads is going to hit 500 soon :) is at 485 now [18:13:00] * YuviPanda updates the dashboard [18:13:41] #500 wins a Nexus 10, right? [18:13:59] hehe [18:14:14] ragesoss: we should run such banners [18:14:19] YuviPanda: caching issue. what is the ticket on it / [18:14:20] ? [18:14:20] '500 uploader wins ' [18:14:22] click the monkey [18:14:27] tfinc: no, we fixed it. [18:14:38] i haven't updated yet, updating it now [18:15:15] yurik: dr0ptp4kt : you guys are optional for the 12-1 [18:16:28] tfinc: good, i'm doing the (re)introductory lunch with amit/kul/dan [18:16:30] tfinc, would rather attend - fairly important imho [18:16:39] yup [18:17:06] tfinc: I'm going to give it a miss [18:17:23] YuviPanda, :) [18:17:34] and get the eta out today [18:17:44] yurik: sure. just note that the todo's that come out of this will be for the web team [18:18:02] aaa, too much geek humor :) [18:20:19] tfinc, understood, just need to see how much API will be affected/needs to be changed [18:20:29] if at all [18:21:18] k [18:22:09] tfinc: report card updated. see massive spike today :) [18:22:20] well, massive spike over the last few days more like [18:23:04] i'll attend as one of the topics is centralauth and i'm sure i'll get sucked into that later :) [18:23:11] yurik: i see 182 [18:23:14] is that up to date ? [18:23:21] is that to me? [18:23:32] i'm gonna grab a gyro before that meeting, brb [18:23:42] tfinc: did you mean me or yurik? [18:24:03] buahahahaha [18:40:19] MaxSem: can you explain your comment on slide 6? [18:41:52] nothing I haven't stated before: we simply need to care about b/c. soon, varnish flushes will be too costly anyway [18:43:12] MaxSem: can you imagine a scenario where we make a change to page html and are willing to wait 31 days for that change to propogate? [18:43:26] meanwhile people who bypass cache see something totally different? [18:43:44] yes, that's how WP works in general [18:44:24] alternatively, gradual varnish purges can help reduce the spikes [18:44:33] yeah, that's what they've been doing lately [18:44:43] one or two boxes at a time [18:44:44] desktop html isn't iterating as fast as mobile, so those long caches are ok [18:44:48] but still, we should switch to the mentality where varnish flushes is an emergency [18:45:32] and/or find another way to deal with the problem [18:46:17] and/or use esi for the skin bits…. which might get scary [18:46:34] yeah and we might start losing performance gains if we have to stitch a lot of chunks together [18:46:40] :( [18:46:49] awjr: hangout is up for the perf reviw [18:46:58] great tfinc i'll hop on in a minute [18:47:15] anyway, that's something ops and platform should hopefully be able to help us figure out [18:50:25] YuviPanda: brion and i were talking about the next iOS sprint while getting lunch [18:50:31] oooh, and? [18:52:56] brion thinks that he can finish account creation by the end of this sprint [18:53:08] next spring i'm looking at the ui work for account creation and getting it in store [18:53:13] brion is going to think wether he can do both [18:53:17] but i'm thinking that if we can't do both [18:53:29] brion gets it in store without account creation while you do the ui work for android [18:53:34] tfinc: +1 [18:53:38] and ios catches up the week after with monte joining [18:53:46] s/week/sprint [18:53:55] tfinc: I'd like it to be without Account creation for first iter in iOS store, since there *will* be bugs to iron out [18:54:02] and it gets it to the store earlier [18:54:06] because seeing http://mobile-reportcard.wmflabs.org/ for iOS is just depressing. [18:54:14] thats what i was thinking [18:54:16] glad you agree [18:54:23] And I bet it'll beat Android's pants off (for a while at least) once it gets into people's hands :P [18:55:51] hey ragesoss [18:55:58] I know that there is *a* tutorial coming up for mobile web [18:56:05] should be out next deployment, or the one after that [18:56:11] I'm unsure where it is placed, however [18:56:15] yep :) [18:56:58] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lead_Photo_For_Point-to-Point_Tunneling_Protocol0-7390942834317684.jpg [18:57:01] seems legit. [18:57:13] dawwwww [18:57:19] New patchset: Jdlrobson; "Rewrite createOverlay to use an Overlay View that is stackable" [mediawiki/extensions/MobileFrontend] (master) - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/54069 [18:57:32] at least it's actually a user-taken photo. [18:57:46] Maryana: me and ragesoss were just going through the mobile uploads, talking about 'survivability' [18:57:47] New patchset: Jdlrobson; "Add Page and Section view" [mediawiki/extensions/MobileFrontend] (master) - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/54139 [18:57:56] I *think* it is something we should measure [19:00:42] ragesoss: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/oqgwmlwlpdwhff3/FrXZvJJTMK#/ [19:00:53] this will go on the Uploads link in the left nav [19:01:02] *in the, rather [19:01:05] for users who have not uploaded any files [19:01:24] there's still some tweaks to make on the copy, but i think the overall visual design/workflow is solid [19:03:25] Maryana: that's pretty. [19:03:34] ayup :) [19:03:35] Maryana: nice graphics! [19:03:38] and to the point! [19:03:39] do you have a goal for how much crap it will filter out? [19:03:41] is that from Vibha? [19:03:47] yes indeed, it's vibha's work [19:04:10] like, it doesn't emphasize very heavily the "we only want photos you took yourself" angle. [19:04:11] nice, should steal her for doing this on the app too at some point [19:04:12] i think it should help somewhat, but obviously nothing is going to catch 100% of the random crap/copyvio [19:04:29] ragesoss, as i said, the copy is still open for tweaking [19:04:40] if you have some ideas for how to convey that part, please take a crack at it! [19:04:52] just remember that we really need to keep it short for the tiny mobile screen [19:05:01] … and most users' complete lack of attention [19:05:35] Maryana: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Uploaded_with_Mobile/Android is about to cross 500 :D [19:05:45] total uploads has already crossed 500. this is 'retained uploads' [19:06:06] yeah, you guys are definitely gonna cream us on quality & number of contributions [19:06:15] MaxSem: muting you as we were picking up some audio [19:06:20] ok [19:06:36] Maryana: :D Wait till the iOS one hits the store. [19:06:42] Maryana: and this is without us doing any major publicity. [19:07:01] what I like with the mobile uploads is that the few decent shots are mostly people's first uploads to Commons. [19:07:16] yeah, while app requires you to already have an account [19:12:03] Maryana: for part 2: "Donate original photos you took yourself that have education value." [19:12:11] that's a little wordy [19:12:24] there's really only room for one idea here, i think [19:12:33]