[14:49:43] * guillom waves. [14:50:57] hey guillom :) [14:51:15] Hey Ironholds. How goes? [14:51:27] packing bags frantically! [14:51:37] just got back from a weekend on a beach, heading to Denmark at 5pm EST [14:51:47] Nice! [14:53:11] Ironholds: I got your OOO email! [14:54:41] YuviPanda, do you like it? [14:55:12] Ironholds: indeed, although that's an expensive pint! [14:56:54] YuviPanda, Denmark is expensive country! [14:56:57] it okay, can expense food [14:57:07] Ironholds: heh :) [15:06:05] Hey hey science people. [15:06:18] Good morning Aaron [15:06:40] hey halfak [15:06:49] ohi halfak [15:06:57] DarTar, ! [15:07:00] Hey dude. [15:07:03] hi :) [15:07:07] DarTar is alive! [15:07:08] How was the vaca? [15:07:42] grand, slighlty less hiking than last year though, due to kids changing size and weight [15:07:47] * halfak realizes "vaca" is both short for "vacation" and also means "cow" in a lot of languages. [15:08:06] we did meet plenty of vacas [15:08:28] :D [15:08:30] survived the canoe trip? [15:08:33] vaca vacation! [15:08:44] Yup. Was good fun. Ended up getting rained on for two of the days. [15:08:54] ach [15:09:00] No big deal for me. I had the gear and I was paddling the canoe -- generating heat. [15:09:10] The dog on the otherhand had to suffer. [15:09:15] I would love to go on a vacation that involves canoeing and stuff like that, but that would require friends to go on the trip with. [15:09:20] I guess I could go kayaking by myself. [15:09:21] I think she aged 6 months in 6 days. [15:09:29] harej: or dogs / rodents [15:09:34] halfak: sad to hear that [15:09:49] Other than the rain, she had a blast though. She a good camping dog. [15:09:58] Took to the water immediately :) [15:10:04] she’ll recover in the summer [15:10:34] harej: That doesn't sound safe. [15:10:48] No, which is why I don't go on vacations. [15:11:20] yo halfak :) [15:11:26] harej: I know where you're coming from. [15:11:39] okay, guillom, harej, we should clearly go kayaking in France [15:11:40] * DarTar waves at Boston [15:11:43] I know the perfect place [15:11:46] the Ardeche river [15:11:50] hey DarTar :) [15:11:53] o/ Ironholds [15:11:55] Sure, when are we scheduling this vacation? [15:11:55] you catch me just before I go to useR [15:12:29] harej, god knows, ask me after I've recovered from the trauma of BOS -> CT -> BOS -> AMS -> DK -> COP -> LON -> BOS [15:13:13] good grief [15:13:24] I have a 3 day layover in NYC on the way to mexico... [15:13:33] Gotta include the trains and buses in there, Ironholds [15:14:24] and a potential 20d layover in SF on the way to berlin... [15:14:29] life is a series of layovers! [15:14:49] * YuviPanda is currently in a 1 month layover in scotland on the way from france [15:14:54] haha. [15:15:05] DarTar, CT was fun! Two days of rockpooling and kayaking :D [15:15:12] oh oh oh! and! [15:15:22] I LEARNED HOW TO THROW PEBBLES AND MAKE THEM JUMP IN THE WATER [15:15:28] I'd seriously not been taught until this weekend [15:15:37] Ironholds: I know someone who has a house there; A great big house in the Ardèche countryside, near the river. I spent a few weeks there in Summer 2008; it was so quiet. [15:15:44] My layover to Mexico City is in Miami. [15:15:49] But the return layover is Dallas. [15:15:51] harej: mine was too, I changed it [15:15:53] Because American Airlines. [15:15:59] guillom, ooh, so jealous. I went there last in 2001 or so in July and it's just gorgeous [15:16:03] plus a 3 day layover means I get to meet friends [15:16:08] ...does this friend go on vacation sometimes and have a free house [15:16:49] okay, time to unpack and repack my bags. I love multiple journeys. [15:17:43] Ironholds: It's actually the house of the mother of one of my partner's good friends. She usually goes on vacation during the Summer and lets her son have the house, and my partner often used to join him. [15:18:17] If you prefer the mountains, my brother has a big house in the Alps too :) [15:18:56] guillom: is your big house in the alps open to non-Ironholds people too? :) [15:19:01] * guillom doesn't know when he's going back to France yet. [15:19:02] I have a month in Europe in August... :D [15:19:17] YuviPanda: That one, yes :) [15:19:26] okay, this is sounding a lot like Wikimedia Goes Kayaking [15:19:36] we should make this a thing when I'm not packing frantically [15:19:38] I can implement whatever feature you would like on Quarry / other project of choice as a bribe [15:19:45] No kayaking in the Alps though, But a lot of hiking. [15:19:57] Anyone wants to join me in "The land of lakes" for some canoeing, let me know. [15:20:08] And it's close to the ski stations too, for the winter season. [15:21:06] halfak: can I just join you for some hacking instead? :) [15:21:13] I have a 1 year european vissa! [15:21:25] Actually, my partner and I need to plan a vacation; we're thinking some time in the Fall. We haven't decided where yet, but are considering the Pacific Northwest, or maybe the Northeast. [15:22:19] guillom, okay, my recommendation would be either Minnesota or Washington, yeah [15:22:21] When I do finally go on vacation, it will need to be for at least a month. [15:22:33] if you go to Washington, hit up J-Mo; him and his partner do a lot of outdoorsy stuff and can make some recs [15:22:37] if you go to Minnesota...doy ;p [15:23:53] Ironholds: I need to figure out the logistics first. We'll probably need a car, and renting one here in the US has proved challenging. [15:23:55] I can lend gear too. [15:24:03] guillom, yeah :( [15:24:05] * guillom will look into that after Wikimania. [15:26:07] Pro tip: If the usual rental car agencies won't let you rent one because you don't have a US credit car, "Rent a wreck" will gladly accept your business. And contrary to what the name implies, their cars aren't "wrecks"; they just aren't almost-new cars. [15:26:30] I got my first credit card because I needed to rent a car. [15:27:07] I've resisted the credit system untel now, but we're thinking of taking one, because that's just how the system works for everything here :( [15:27:41] As Ironholds put it, a tiered system of freedoms based on your credit score. [15:28:06] actually that was a modification of DarTar's advice when I first moved here [15:28:11] "US citizenship is based on credit score" [15:28:25] Which is truer than you could possibly know. [15:28:35] no, I know it pretty well now ;p [15:28:50] Yes, but you're not on the receiving end of centuries of multi-generational poverty. [15:29:05] 5 years ago, when I was looking for an apartment in SF, the guy mentioned credit checks, and we explained we were French and didn't use credit. We said "We just don't spend money we don't have." He paused for a moment and admitted that that made a lot more sense in principle than the credit system. [15:29:23] I don't have a credit card either [15:29:33] also I can't actually drive anyway. [15:29:59] guillom, same here. [15:30:09] But I got boned when I tried to buy a house. [15:30:12] harej, this is true [15:30:24] guillom, the germans find it similarly confusing [15:30:32] "I dunno if you're good with money" "But I saved up the whole down payment making 20k per year." [15:30:35] I thoroughly recommend Henning Wehn's bit on German versus British spending [15:30:47] solution is to never want anything and live alone with all your belongings in a suitcase [15:30:54] halfak, you were paying in cash. What exactly were they complaining about? [15:31:02] Giving me a loan [15:31:05] harej, the availability of the rest of the cash ;p [15:31:10] but it's still dumb, yes [15:31:16] Because no one can save up for a house and buy in cash. [15:31:21] like, invert the situation, right? [15:31:28] Either that or you won't move in when you are young. [15:31:32] "hey dude, I'd like to give you 30k right now. In exchange, I'd like you to buy a thing for me" [15:31:46] "if I don't pay you the money for the thing you still get the thing, which doesn't tremendously depreciate in value, and have my 30k" [15:32:09] Ironholds, even better -- has been on the most stead appreciation pattern in the country [15:32:10] I have far more credit than I deserve, but I still don't spend more than I have. I don't build balances. Uh, except for student loans, but I usually don't spend that much money in one go :P [15:32:13] "naw" "what" "ehhh I don't know if you have the rest of the money" "but you GET THE THING I'M SPENDING THE MONEY ON" [15:32:25] halfak, yep :/ [15:32:33] guillom, get credit card. Treat like debit card. Win. [15:32:40] that's what I doooo! [15:33:04] 'apply for credit card' 'get denied' 'become pissed off, book next flight ticket' [15:33:13] halfak, immigrating zeroes your credit score [15:33:20] halfak: Yeah, that's one of the main reasons we're thinking of starting to build credit: to be able to get a home loan. We're considering a few options; for example, our bank (HSBC) may offer loans to their clients even if they don't have a credit history, because they're a "global bank" and expats and foreigners represent a big chunk of their clientele. [15:33:26] "apply for weird-ass credit card where you have to put money in first and can only spend 50 bucks at a time" [15:33:28] "wait 2 years" [15:33:31] "apply for credit card" [15:33:43] "get denied, denting rudimentary credit rating. Apply for weird-ass..." [15:33:59] Ironholds, ^ [15:34:00] Woops [15:34:01] "if not denied, gradually ramp up over a decade something that all of your peers have been doing since they were 18. Buy a house at 60 and die in it" [15:34:10] I meant to say that I took out a loan just to pay it back. [15:34:16] yeah, your bank is awesome [15:34:29] I took out a loan from a bank for 1k, put it in a CD and paid it off. [15:34:33] halfak: We've also been saving a fair amount to serve as a down payment. Nowhere near enought to buy a house though. [15:34:47] The bank got to keep all the money so they were happy. [15:36:03] Ironholds: yeah, that seems to be where I'm at. [15:36:08] 'secured credit card!!!1' [15:36:20] I mean, I don't even know if I want to live in the US for all of eternity.. [15:37:45] It's a bad country. [15:37:54] YuviPanda: Agreed. We'll probably wait for a few years to see if the green card comes through before buying anything. [15:38:03] guillom: yeah. [15:40:09] I'm staying here forever [15:40:16] don't want to go back to the UK, suck at languages, hate the cold [15:40:26] You hate the cold but live in Boston? [15:40:55] You could go to Astralia. If you don't mind risking being killed by almost any living thing down there. [15:41:06] * YuviPanda puts a spider in guillom's toilet [15:41:06] Australia, too. [15:41:47] YuviPanda: I found one in my t-shirt yesterday. But I don't mind the small house spiders here; we give them names, like pets :) [15:42:05] Australia is the one "advanced country" that's more regressive than the United States. [15:42:32] Australia does a thing to fuck up and I take satisfaction in knowing that there's one country worse than us. [15:42:42] True. [15:43:18] harej: at least they don't have guns :P [15:43:19] The nordic countries are progressive, and English is spoken widely, but… The Cold. [15:43:24] EVERYTHING ESPLODE [15:43:32] guillom: I have been told that the nordic countries are fairly racist as well? [15:43:33] harej, it was a bad decision [15:43:39] guillom, also immigrating there is Fun [15:44:26] Ironholds: So my friend (from Milwaukee) moved to Los Angeles on the basis that it wasn't cold, and unlike the other warm cities, does not have a reputation for crazy white supremacist types. [15:44:41] YuviPanda: I don't know about racism there. I only visited Finland once for a conference, and I didn't feel a lot of racism, but of course that could be due to my own privilege. [15:44:55] * YuviPanda got chased around by the EDL once, blames Ironholds for that :P [15:45:07] As for immigration, I don't think about that issue since us Europeans can freely move around Europe :) [15:45:14] Ironholds: I don't know that I recommend LA for you specifically. You're from England, and then you moved to Boston, which may as well be in England. Los Angeles is an entirely different specimen. [15:45:32] harej, LA is like...hmn. [15:45:38] one of those majestic beasts, right? [15:45:47] only it's old and it's covered with barnacles and feeder species and it's getting slow [15:45:52] harej: LA is a place I've visited twice, and I like to visit it occasionally, but I wouldn't live there. [15:45:57] Raleigh has fewer racists than most, to be fair. [15:46:00] YuviPanda, fuck the EDL [15:46:03] Los Angeles isn't that old. [15:46:12] guillom: indeed. Norway explicitly says that if you need a visa to come there, sorry, we can not provide you one. [15:46:18] harej, no, but you know what I mean. It has an air of..varnish over decrepidity [15:46:31] It's run down, which is different from being old :) [15:46:32] Also, if we move anywhere in the US, it's to get out of the drought-laden states. [15:46:39] you could just say "shit" and be honest ;p [15:46:43] guillom, ahh, so you do want Minnesota! [15:46:51] the land of ten thousand lakes and multiple halfakers! [15:46:52] guillom: come to the beautiful District of Columbia. We have lots of foreigners and it rains every week! [15:46:59] harej, DC is a swampy hellhole [15:47:04] That's why it rains every week! [15:47:06] > If you plan to visit friends in Norway or visit Norway as a tourist, you will normally not be granted a visa. [15:47:09] I do miss the old cities of Europe though. Everything in the US is so young. [15:47:11] well done, Norway [15:47:15] it should have a monument to the British, because us burning the place down was the nicest thing that's ever happened in that city [15:47:21] seriously, I want the Peace Prize for the war of 1812 [15:47:32] You're not going to get it [15:47:32] and then you monsters rebuilt it! WHY [15:47:36] guillom, just the cities. [15:47:39] Turns out we needed a capital [15:47:44] Lots of old stuff in North America -- just not cities. [15:47:47] Norway doesn't tell you directly either [15:47:53] you just go click around and then it's at the bottom of http://www.udi.no/en/want-to-apply/visit-and-holiday/visitors-visa-to-norway-yellow/?c=ind#link-743 [15:48:21] note that the visa process doesn't affect you if you're european or american... [15:48:42] halfak: fair enough. [15:51:46] Lots of old people things too. The rock faces that stuck out of the water in the boundary waters still have their old paintings. [17:06:21] Ironholds: thanks for chiming in on the talk page. :-) [17:07:05] Ironholds: I've asked Michelle to comment on the privacy component of the conversation. Her response on wiki-research-l already addresses that comment, but it's good if she leaves a comment on that thread, too, given the traffic to the Talk page these days. [17:07:15] We can continue quoting Michelle from that point on, Ironholds. [17:07:15] leila, no problem! I hope it was helpful. You're doing fantastic work and have a big +1 from me [17:07:25] Thank you, Ironholds. :-) [17:07:32] yeah, I'm gonna be hanging out with 650 statistics nerds and some Akvavit [17:07:37] I won't be chipping in even if I wanted to ;p [17:07:43] haha. :P [17:07:48] have fun. where are you Ironholds? [17:07:50] "*:: I LOVE YOU MAN YOU'RE MY BEST FRIEND ~~~~" [17:08:05] Boston, but heading to Denmark! It's useR 2015 and I have a talk to give :D [17:08:18] owwww! congratulations! that's very nice. [17:08:27] it should be beautiful in Denmark now. [17:09:12] yup! And all the geeks are there at once :) [17:09:20] leila, actually useR next year is in Stanford. You should go!" [17:09:26] haha, how so, Ironholds? [17:09:43] ha! making a note of it Ironholds. [17:09:46] sweet! [17:10:03] *that* conference I am going to blow the walls off *schemes* [17:10:08] I have a sekret package I've been working on [17:10:28] uhun. best of luck with this one and the next. :-) [17:11:08] thankee :) [18:00:38] * halfak --> lunch [20:33:31] hi halfak. I'm talking to Dario about showcase, and I'm thinking of delaying it until we come back from Wikimania? Dario will be on the plane on Wednesday, Thursday is Metrics, next week will be all pre Wikimania and QRs, so people will not have time to attend in peace. [20:33:44] the WMF staff I mean, halfak. [20:51:01] leila, OK with me [20:51:47] thanks halfak. [20:51:54] will update in the staff meeting then.